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LEAD conference 2014

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 20th 2014, 1:00 am

I do the like the idea. It was some of us like Strods and me who thought it would be good way to make Royal Rangers FCF focused and give Cmdrs guides on frontier craft. I just wished once they'd recognize a good from the start. 

Just proves one thing they are creating more merits for "that old camping program nobody wants to do anymore"...  Anymore drama/arts, sports, trades, or technology focused merits...I haven't seen any!  If camping was a big hinderance why create more frontier camping merits. Does anyone else something... vindication!

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 20th 2014, 4:10 pm

A common error. God says he is the same yesterday, today and tommarrow. He is not stagnate. They keep improving our Ranger Program and it gets worse and worse every time they change it.

We had a great program in 1999. Since then it has been going down hill ever since... well at least the stats show that to be true. It's been my observation as well.

Mark Jones


cbasham wrote:Well if we arnt improving we risk becoming Stagnate
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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 20th 2014, 5:11 pm

I wrote 3 paragraphs on the new changes and deleted it. (I am getting smarter the older I get..GRIN)

I can take anyone's favorite food dish and just change 1 little ole bitty part/process in it and it won't turn out as good as it was. These guys that change this stuff is like someone bringing a brand new guy off the street and they put a chef hat on him and say cook away... pretty soon all the old customers go elsewhere where the food is always good and they wonder why everyone is gone. If they would just change one little itty bitty part at a time..I can see where improvement can come in..but they change the whole thing and never learn much more than it didn't work.

Edison had over 100 failures before he got the light bulb to work... today they try and sell you first 99 flops like a working lightbulb. All the while we see souls going to hell while they monkey flop around with "NEW IDEAS" I call it poo poo.

Mark Jones


RRCmdrBennett wrote:I do the like the idea. It was some of us like Strods and me who thought it would be good way to make Royal Rangers FCF focused and give Cmdrs guides on frontier craft. I just wished once they'd recognize a good from the start. 

Just proves one thing they are creating more merits for "that old camping program nobody wants to do anymore"...  Anymore drama/arts, sports, trades, or technology focused merits...I haven't seen any!  If camping was a big hinderance why create more frontier camping merits. Does anyone else something... vindication!
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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 20th 2014, 10:44 pm

Are these new FCF merits that bad Mark?  Does it add to FCF or fundamentally change anything?  Seems we maaybe making a judgment site unseen. I need to get a new handbook to figure this out first.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by cbasham on March 21st 2014, 1:12 am

The merits are not completed all they have are the pictures right now The handbook to my knowledge it's all going be put on track club but the skill merits are supposed to be very hard compared to any other merit it should be very skill specific by getting people to focus on skills and doing skills the right way like I said the specific one of the examples They gave for the Tomahawk merit was that actually forge a tomahawk head so based upon that out expect the skills to be decently difficult

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 21st 2014, 1:39 am

Mark is all about building skills and repitition.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by joecool on March 21st 2014, 9:26 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote: I need to get a new handbook to figure this out first.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! I think he uncovered their plan. How many books has RR/GPH changed over the last decade? I, for one, refuse to feed the beast by purchasing the latest and greatest.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 21st 2014, 10:22 am

Check www.nationalfcf.com maybe it will have explanation.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 21st 2014, 2:21 pm

Dan it's not the FCF merits that I am talking about. I am talking about the requirements to get into FCF. Bronze medal of Achievement. Means they will have to be involved in the gma track to get into FCF. Leadership Merits etc.

Leaders requirements as well. Up.

They will filter out a bunch of boys by this one requirement.

There are like 97% of the boys in FCF that could care less about the advancement system and the leadership merits...they just want to camp frontiersman style.

Mark Jones



RRCmdrBennett wrote:Are these new FCF merits that bad Mark?  Does it add to FCF or fundamentally change anything?  Seems we maaybe making a judgment site unseen. I need to get a new handbook to figure this out first.
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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 21st 2014, 2:27 pm

WE have 2 forges in our District... with 50 boys coming into Fcf each year we will need to get some more forges. Never mind that.. with the BMA.. lots of those boys won't be coming in to FCF. So it's a moot point. Bam they fixed that proper.

Mark Jones


cbasham wrote:The merits are not completed all they have are the pictures right now The handbook to my knowledge it's all going be put on track club but the skill merits are supposed to be very hard compared to any other merit it should be very skill specific by getting people to focus on skills and doing skills the right way like I said the specific one of the examples They gave for the Tomahawk merit was that actually forge a tomahawk head so based upon that out expect the skills to be decently difficult
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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 21st 2014, 9:10 pm

Nowadays BMA is not that hard to get. 1 leadership, 1 core skill, and 4 electives. Camping merit can be 1/4 of your electives. Plus 24 brown lessons and 8 Sunday School lessons or some other alternate lesson. 

Old BMA was double the work. Even by osmosis and attendance one could walk his way thru the current BMA...

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 24th 2014, 12:25 pm

Will see a reduction in applicants in FCF. I would guess it to be by at least 50%...if we adhere to the National rules.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by strods on March 25th 2014, 12:18 am

Alright hang on hang on, let's eat the wheat and spit out the chaff here. I have not read anything from LEAD, but I have read through the 2014 FCF applications for all 3 levels.
Summary:
Frontiersmen: not asking any info about the FCF Merits. Now looking for a completed advancement medal, Eagle, BMA, or E1

Buckskin: again, not asking any info for FCF merits
Looking for 2nd Advancement medal
Also looking for Trapper's Brigade advancement (Company)

Wilderness: again, not asking any info for FCF merits
Looking for 3nd Advancement medal
Also looking for Trapper's Brigade advancement (Bourgeois)

Review:
The new merits previous discussed. If they are additional options, great bring them on. If they are new requirements, then I will be surprised and hesitant, but I will cross that road as I come to it. Frankly I can't believe National is going to require and 11 year old boy to forge a hawk to join though.

The FCF Merits, I can see where the specific merits are not being required nationally to create flexibility for the non camping outpost (where are they again?) But my solution will be . . . our outpost will maintain them on an outpost level, heck I may add Astronomy. The new forms still require the Sr Cmdr approval. That's how my Rangers will earn mine.

The advancement medal requirement. Okay they are tying FCF more to the standard Advancement. I always told my boys it takes a year minimum to get into FCF anyway, so I don't see a huge problem.

The obvious objection here is the Leadership merits. Here is my take. And Example is those time travel merits. How many of us actually used those lesson plans? How many of us still taught the Bible and issued merits. So yes I will teach in-depth leadership every 6 months, and maybe I'll use their plans. Or maybe I'll use the Bible, or Scout material, or anything else I or my Cmdrs think will teach our boys. I may be a whipper snapper on this forum but I have more important things to do than worry about bureaucracy. I got boys to RTK! I ain't got time to bleed unless I'm teaching First Aid! Very Happy 

Trapper's Brigade
This is interesting, they are promoting it. Now I've also reviewed the 2014 Trappers brigade applications, -From 2010 the requirements were 50 / 100 / 150, and that time need to be away from home, generally out of district, or at least out of church. (clarification if I am wrong please)

2014 forms now read
20 hrs Outpost
20 hrs church
10 hrs community Svc
10 hrs missions

I don't know I all are required, 1 is required or a combination. I will wait to read more before deciding. Regardless, I find it more flexible than 50 hrs out of state.

So sifting through it I find National is easing up on Merits, that I will maintain locally, and they are promoting more Christian service. I can handle that. Frankly, we know boys want in FCF to Camp old fashioned style so I'll trade a decrease of Buckskin / Wilderness if it means more Frontiersmen, and boys being saved.
Perhaps the new merits open more opportunity for trade training at Traces? Of course that sounds very much like mentoring so that is crazy.

Until I read more, from the actually material put out, I choose to remain cautiously optimistic.

As an example, when they changed the GMA requirements for more flexibility, our outpost became more FCF focused, not less. We did less public speaking, more wildlife, etc.

Don't fear freedom, Jesus died for it.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 25th 2014, 8:59 am

I deleted 3 paragraphs again. GRIN! Wiser than even before. Ha! DECLINE!, DECLINE!, DECLINE! Mark these words down... time will tell.


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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 25th 2014, 9:51 am

Strods you put forth a well thought well organized post. I too will wait and see what comes of it before I pass judgment. Isn't one of the core values of FCF Advancement?  With new FCF merits couldn't. BMA be FCF focused which is an interest of the boys. The whole GMA is half of what it used to be.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 25th 2014, 9:53 am

Mark Jones wrote:I deleted 3 paragraphs again.  GRIN!  Wiser than even before. Ha!  DECLINE!,  DECLINE!, DECLINE!  Mark these words down... time will tell.


Mark Jones

Since when does Mark Jones deletes 3 paragraphs? Haha

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"Be Ready, It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark."

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 25th 2014, 11:25 am


Bronze Medal 4 Bible of 8 lessons each = 32 weeks
4 green silver your choice not earned in Discovery Rangers. (that cuts out most of the FCF merits of past)
1 Global missions requried
1 Leadership

With the BMA in the mix we will see a major reduction in FCF applications.

It was easy to do a review on the FCF merits and quickly go through them and those that were new in the AR group you could get them through them fast.

Even with our outpost and it's over achieving BMA's it won't even get close to what we had going into FCF each year with this one requirement. I know other outposts as well that will be declining in numbers. Bad choice to lock it into the advancement system...that is built around 97% of the boys not going that direction...do they have a clue? NOPE.

Mark Jones





1 Bible Merits for Adventure Rangers must be BROWN

2 Green skill merits must not have been previously counted for credit towards Discovery Rangers advancement.

3 Required Green Merits are Bible, Global Missions, and Healthy Body.

4 Additional requirements for the Bronze Medal of Achievement: Recite from memory the Royal Rangers pledge, Code, Motto, meaning of the points of the Emblem, and the Golden Rule.


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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 25th 2014, 11:33 am

We had 9 BMA's in the So. MO District last year.  We had 35 going into FCF last year.  

It's a major red flag of warning.   I mean MAJOR RED FLAG of Warning.  
These guys simply  just don't think.  As Phil Robertson would say yuppie idiots.  

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 27th 2014, 12:31 am

You make a valid point. On the issue of greens in DR if they have not been used on the Gold Eagle app just reassign them to Adventure. They lose DR levels but that doesn't matter since those greens are locked in and recorded on a national app for GEA. 

Another scheme to increase GMA's and GPH revenue...  If they need a "give me merit" green truck transportation and silver landscape architecture are so easy.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by strods on March 27th 2014, 9:10 pm

okay, again hang on here guys.
If they have the Eagle, that counts.
Where the problem comes in is boys starting after 4th, which is a lot.
My suggestion would be to look at what we used to do ala 2010
8 Skill merits a year, and 40 bible lessons a year (not including Sunday School). And we all know a few extra merits fall in from weekend events etc.

Now its 4 skills, a required, and a leadership.
Bible can be crunched to 4 merits x 6 wed (+ 2 SS lessons each merit) = 24 weeks = 6 months. This make BSA / Frontiersmen EASIER to get into.

Now I don't encourage, support, or agree with the idea of making things easier, but the point is it can be. IF it has been made easier, then how can we be this sure Frontiersmen numbers be reduced.

If there is problems with BMA's I don't know why. BMA is pretty standard to achieve here. Where my boys run into trouble is SMA/GMA, but that is largely because we still require the Service Project requirements.

Where I see red flags is getting to Buckskin due to the Trappers requirement, but I am caution in saying that until I can read what the specs on the new hours are.


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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by strods on March 27th 2014, 9:39 pm

Change in General
As this discussion is seeming to get polarized, as many do. I wanted to put this out.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of change, especially change for no good reason. Do I wish Nat'l would stop changing the program every 2 years? Yes dear God, please.

That being said, I have a Duty, and that Duty is to RTK the boys, and I have to do that is the weird place I call "reality", with imperfect people, and imperfect decisions, and imperfect material, and imperfect to likely non-existent funds. . . etc.

Maybe I rely too much on my military mentality, but I may not like the orders, but I follow them. Regardless of the supplies, of the orders, I still believe in the overall Mission, the RTK-ing. So like the Marines, I'll "keep doing so much, with so little, for so long, until I can do anything, forever, with nothing."

However, I understand needing to blow of steam. If we're here venting because we need to because of some of the completely STUPID decisions that have come out, I get that. I've even done that.

But let's just make sure we're still keeping ourselves as example in front of the boys.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 27th 2014, 11:23 pm

There is no steam blowing off here. It's facts I am showing you. FACS show 35 going into FCF this past year and only 9 BMA's so to make it really clear...

35 - 9 = 24 almost a 3/4 reduction in FCF membership. 24 souls that won't get a witness of Jesus Christ around the campfires. That's sad very sad.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 27th 2014, 11:29 pm

Strouds can you tell me how many BMA's you had in your District? How many went into FCF this past year?

We had 5 Eagles get earned this year but that is rare. I will look on the nat site to see how many of those are earned. We have not had many that is for sure.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by Mark Jones on March 27th 2014, 11:40 pm

We had 22 Eagles in our District. Take 22 +9 = 31 that's closer to the 35 that we had going into our District. However I am still seeing decline here. Not as much as 75% but I would estimate it at 45% reduction. Just saying. It's not a good direction either way.

Please keep in mind folks when you read these posts. Many times we are just thinking aloud. I don't get that wound up on stuff in reality but I do hate change for change sake especially when it means less is more.

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 28th 2014, 1:21 am

They need BMA or GEA plus trail of the grizzly merits?

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Re: LEAD conference 2014

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