The Circle Maker

Seriously, Mark, get yourself on the non-executive list. You seem to be well-connected. Or at least find out who gets on it, who is of like mind, and feed him our concerns.

#7 - Don't keep changing things for change's sake, or to justify someone's job. We can't keep up out in the field, and it costs us a lot of money. And unless you're uber-connected, you can't find the changes to start with.
#8 - Way too much training out there, for men and boys alike. They make us feel that we're lacking, and less than Rangers, if we can't keep up with all the acronym training.
#9 - Each Leadership merit for boys takes way too much time in order to keep up. Some outposts are small with a finite number of commanders to get everything done. Reduce the packages' ridiculous number of pages.
#10 - STOP adding merits. It looks like we're trying to keep up with the neighbors (Boy Scouts). Again, it spreads us out too thin. There needs to be commander involvement in the vast majority of them.
#11 - Over the past few years, there's been an explosion of medals, for men and boys alike. This proliferation has watered down the value and importance of what we used to have. What happened to being humble and content with honor from God? Do we really want to be chasing after bling? We're starting to look like the Air Force (with apologies). At the upper levels, does this foster a mentality of commanders inventing more and more in order to qualify for the latest medal? How do they keep up, let alone us?

Hey, national! Can you see the common denominator in here? Slow down! Focus on what's really important and give us commanders a break, huh?

This morning at 6:15 am one of the Ranger Leaders that I went through ANTC with (one of the best camps I have ever been through by the way) he and his son put in for Wilderness in 2007. Son got involved in Band and they couldn't make the Wilderness vigil due to a rain check kind of thing.

So he wanted to know if they could go through Wilderness this year after a 6 year sabbatical. They carried their requirements out to the letter. I even had them paid up for the event.

He told me if he had to go back through all the new requirements they wouldn't want to finish what they started. I said. I have your app. It's been paid for and I have witnessed your abilities first hand. Your good to go for Wilderness at our Fall Trace.

Hands down Joe you nailed down many of the other concerns I hear from So. Missouri.

At the campground this weekend went up for a work day and our numbers were down even there..but those that were there....they echoed exactly what we have just talked about. SICK AND TIRED of the fluff the requirement, the training, the garbage.

I will volunteer to be on the screening committee they know and you know I will be up front and tell them the truth. Yet it's going to have to be a GOD thing and HE will have to shake the tree to get the fruit to show up. I don't know if AG leadership is ready for a good ole fashioned Pruning they have so many innerself psyco vines choaking off the tree of life in the organization. Only a good pruning from the roots on up will produce good fruit again.

Mark Jones

#12 - Re focus the program for small churches, not megas. Min outpost can be 1 Cmdr & 5 Rangers so make it something 1 guy can manage. If you have a larger church & more staff then it's easier for you great! But target small, one man OP, re- seed the fields, enable the hands to tend them, then the harvest comes.

#12 is a good one as well.

#13. National needs to Track only one award. GMA. That's it. This 25.00 per Bronze, Silver and for these other Ready Leader and such is bad news.

I had one of my leaders wanting to go into FCF said he had the training completed. They told him he need to get it certified by National. We had a bunch of leaders that got training but didn't turn in their application for recognition to National and pay the extra leadership fees. Other than collecting fees why would National even want to track all that stuff. I would give it back to the Districts to track and let them handle it cheaply.

A big staff requires a big budget. We got a whole lot more with a little ity bity staff and praise God there was not a change every few months. It worked and it stayed the same....you could count on it.

Updates and changes just hit us as Now What!!!
That comes from a history of bad moves.

It needs to get back to what works and cut it to the bone.

They keep saying we have to charge so much for these events. Well we do if we keep providing it all. Nothing is free. The simpler it is the better it is. Our District Commander just saved 100.00 on hamburger patties for Pow Wow. 25.00 per person to go to Pow Wow plus what the outpost charges. Ours is 40.00 each at 4 days of camping that is dirt cheap.

Mark Jones


Mark Jones

joecool wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:Yup...but I haven't seen it in print yet.  There is hope in the future!

It's out. I just received a couple of forwarded e-mails from my district commander. Doug Marsh will be back at the helm of Int'l RR within 6 months. A search for a new US national commander has started.

Praise God!
the long dark time is passing!   

Mark Jones wrote: 2. If you don't work with boys your not considered useable management.  (Grass Roots)

To me that is has been the #1 problem of RR 2.0, it was written by people who did not work with kids on a regular basis.

I agree with most sentiments here regarding training I don't see a lot more required. Marriott's LTA had dozens of modules. The info on changes is posted on natl web site.  They do expect a lot when they come out with changes so fast they don't get it we have lives, wives, jobs, and kids to. We are volunteers doing this part time for free. 

Change wco to successful outposts and reduce to a day event and edit out the psycological personality test. Why does it have to be overnight?  Make on medal per group and run the GMA over AR and ER like the old days. 

I'm cautiously optimistic...

Mark Jones wrote: We had a bunch of leaders that got training but didn't turn in their application for recognition to National and pay the extra leadership fees. Other than collecting fees why would National even want to track all that stuff. I would give it back to the Districts to track and let them handle it cheaply.

A big staff requires a big budget. We got a whole lot more with a little ity bity staff and praise God there was not a change every few months. It worked and it stayed the same....you could count on it.

Updates and changes just hit us as Now What!!!




Mark Jones

This goes Hand-in-Hand with Joe's post.

We would update uniforms, vests, merits, books, then be told a couple of years later that they are no good, and that we must buy-in to the newest and greatest (at substantial cost, of course), but we were told that it would be worth it. Come to find out that 80% of the stuff in the "New" Program of Instruction is the same materials as in our Leaders' Manuals.

Much the same thing with Leadership Training Requirements. Why do leaders need to go through a "Capstone Pyramid" of Sales & Management Courses to be considered leaders? I understand Ranger Basics (or similar) to show leaders the essence of the program, leading meetings, bringing boys to Christ, and ethics/liability.

Beyond that, an annual 4 to 8 hour update at District Level should be sufficient. (I understand NTC, ANTC, Winter NTC, etc. But I considered those as "Enhancement" Training: not something that National was shoving as a requirement.)

ccm2361 wrote:

joecool wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:Yup...but I haven't seen it in print yet.  There is hope in the future!

It's out. I just received a couple of forwarded e-mails from my district commander. Doug Marsh will be back at the helm of Int'l RR within 6 months. A search for a new US national commander has started.

Praise God!
the long dark time is passing!   

Is that a LOTR reference?

Claymore wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:  We had a bunch of leaders that got training but didn't turn in their application for recognition to National and pay the extra leadership fees.  Other than collecting fees why would National even want to track all that stuff.   I would give it back to the Districts to track and let them handle it cheaply.  

A big staff requires a big budget.  We got a whole lot more with a little ity bity staff and praise God there was not a change every few months.  It worked and it stayed the same....you could count on it.

Updates and changes just hit us as Now What!!!




Mark Jones

This goes Hand-in-Hand with Joe's post.

We would update uniforms, vests, merits, books, then be told a couple of years later that they are no good, and that we must buy-in to the newest and greatest (at substantial cost, of course), but we were told that it would be worth it.  Come to find out that 80% of the stuff in the "New" Program of Instruction is the same materials as in our Leaders' Manuals.

Much the same thing with Leadership Training Requirements.  Why do leaders need to go through a "Capstone Pyramid" of Sales & Management Courses to be considered leaders?  I understand Ranger Basics (or similar) to show leaders the essence of the program, leading meetings, bringing boys to Christ, and ethics/liability.  

Beyond that, an annual 4 to 8 hour update at District Level should be sufficient.  (I understand NTC, ANTC, Winter NTC, etc.  But I considered those as "Enhancement" Training: not something that National was shoving as a requirement.)

I agree on the nat'l NRMC/NEEC being needed for Trained level is not right but then pt WCO in the Advanced level. The nat'l camp was before considered advanced training above the LMA. Old LMA was $125. Now to get trained its at least over $250. Keeping RangerOcare affordable as promised doesn't drive the economic engine of Royal Rangers. See a pattern here Doug and Hussein bth promised affordability. The changes rollout and its more expensive.

And both appear to inflate their numbers for growth in their respective programs.

Sad to say. The worlds system has infiltrated the church so much so they look and act the same in this respect.

I wished Jesus would come back and clear the temple of the money changers once again. It's not market share it's souls to RTK for Christ.

Mark Jones

RRCmdrBennett wrote:

ccm2361 wrote:

joecool wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:Yup...but I haven't seen it in print yet.  There is hope in the future!

It's out. I just received a couple of forwarded e-mails from my district commander. Doug Marsh will be back at the helm of Int'l RR within 6 months. A search for a new US national commander has started.

Praise God!
the long dark time is passing!   

Is that a LOTR reference?

No it wasn't

but I can see how you might think it so   

We're finally reaching the gates of Mordor!