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The Circle Maker

Post by joecool on April 24th 2014, 6:16 pm

If anyone has input on the following, I'd appreciate it.

On two sermon occasions in the past couple of months, my pastor has used the following quote: "Bold prayers honor God, and God honors bold prayers. God isn't offended by your biggest dreams or boldest prayers. He is offended by anything less. If your prayers aren't impossible to you, they are insulting to God." I cringed both times I heard it.

It comes out of the book The Circle Maker, written by Rev Mark Batterson. He claims to have received a new revelation on how to pray. It's all based upon the reported experience of a possible rabbi from the 1st century BC. It's an oral story that was written down in the Talmud 600 years later. It's all extra-Biblical.

So now our pastor and his wife are going to lead a small group this summer using Batterson's curriculum package. Draw circles around your prayers. Apparently, it's been all the rage for the last couple of years. The whole thing unsettles me. Anyone heard of this out there?

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Phillip Gross on April 24th 2014, 9:36 pm

News to me...

I thought God cared about even our smallest issues. "...consider the lilies of the field..." Plus, the whole thought process is skewed IMO. For someone to say one thing is bigger or smaller to God would denote that God has a scale of limitations. God is infinite, therefore everything is small to Him. That idea is what enables me to pray for anything and everything with faith. Everything is small to God. It's only me that sees the big or the small of an issue because I'm finite.
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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by strods on April 24th 2014, 10:06 pm

I have no issue with the concept of dream big, pray big, go beyond mediocrity. But yes I agree, my Bible also talks about God numbering the hairs on your head so I believe he does care about the details too.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by joecool on April 25th 2014, 2:27 pm

Phillip Gross wrote: For someone to say one thing is bigger or smaller to God would denote that God has a scale of limitations. God is infinite, therefore everything is small to Him.

Huge and insightful point, Phillip. I sent my concerns to our elders last night. One has responded so far, saying he's also concerned. They've got it for discrete action. Pray, wait and see. Pray some more.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Claymore on April 25th 2014, 6:37 pm

All good points.

Why does God intervene at some times, and not at others.

The last couple of churches that I attended had some young couples who had horrible events and terrible illnesses by their spouses and children. And those were folks who seemed to be some of the greatest, innocent, and most devout members of the Church with true hearts for God.

Go Figure?

We had an Elder in our Church who said that those members who had uncured illness was because of "Unresolved Sin" in their lives (I'm a little uncomfortable with that).

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by strods on April 25th 2014, 8:17 pm

Claymore wrote: those members who had uncured illness was because of "Unresolved Sin" in their lives (I'm a little uncomfortable with that).
 :evil:  :evil:  :evil: 
That kind of malarkey really burns me up! My wife has been on bed rest for three months now, and now I'm suppose to tell her it's because of unresolved sin!!!!  :evil: :evil: :evil: 

I can explain the bad that befalls good people in three steps.
1. We are a fallen people.
2. in a fallen world,
3. and we are not alone.

When and Adam and Eve sinned they corrupted the human condition, physically, spiritually, and psychology. Our bodies now become ill, we sin, and our we flat out think wrong so we make mistakes and that often brings harm to people.

The storms and flood, and drought and such are part of the Curse that world now endures.

and finally, not always, I don't even think often, but occasionally there is demonic activity. I'm not "claiming the devil made me do it", but when someone is really making headway for the Lord I could see the Devil taking a shot at them. Or when someone is seeking the demonic through drugs, cults, etc, well no wonder they find them

Sorry, stepping down from my soapbox. This kind of preaching really ticks me off. I wouldn't interrupt service but I would have a word with the preacher for that. Fricken kicking a man when they're down, grrrrr thumbs down :evil: :evil: 
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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Claymore on April 26th 2014, 12:23 pm

We have a 70-year-old lady in our church who is a founding member.  She is a dear person, and a Sunday School Teacher.

But she has taught in church that she is afraid that, if she ever had a glass of wine, it would prevent her from going in the Rapture.  THAT is a big problem that I have with "Holiness" Churches.  The churches become so legalistic that they are just 21st Century Hebrews wandering in the Desert creating more rules for themselves.

Now if someone wants to personally attempt to maintain the standards that Samson did as a Nazarene and not eat Pork, never cut his Hair, never touch Wine, and let his Sideburns grow long & curly: fine.  Just don't tell me that I'm not going to Heaven if I ever cut my hair or have bacon on my cheeseburger.

God wants us to maintain Christian standards because we LOVE Him and want to be in Fellowship with Him, not because we are afraid that clipping our Sideburns will cost us our Salvation.


40 years ago, the Church of God taught that, in order to maintain their "Holiness Standard", women must not wear jewelry or makeup, they must only wear long dresses & skirts (no slacks), and that they must not cut their hair.

So about 30 or 35 years ago, the church modified their standards.  Now those things are not "Forbidden", just taught to be Modest & in Good Taste.

I asked my wife, "So where are those women who wore makeup and died before the Rule Change?  Did they get out of Hell, when the Church modified its rules, or are they still there?"


......And I can find the use of Makeup by women to be Forbidden JUST as Strongly as some other rules that "Holiness" Churches proclaim.  OK, Guys.  Try going home and Enforcing THAT Biblical Principle........................


Oh, and in order to get into Heaven, do they check to see if you Tithed on Everything that you made throughout your entire life, or only the money that you earned during the last year, or two?

My point is this: You can NEVER be Holy Enough. If you look hard enough in the Bible, you will Always find Standards that you fall short of. So accept Christ's Payment for our Sins, and just do your Best our of Love for Him.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 26th 2014, 1:30 pm

There is no new revelation of spiritual truth outside of the bible. Jesus taught us how to pray. So many cults begin this way with a charismatic leader. 

The Lord's prayer contains nothing BIG its really simple. Give us this day our daily bread i very easy for me to go the store and buy bread. I pray for His provision anyway. This drawing circles around our prayers is a fad. Praying for big stuff only is "name it and claim it" theology!

Claymore, I totally get ya on holiness churches my church is considered pentacostal holiness. We're more moderate but we still have dress codes for church events. Skirts/dresses to knee or lower and long pants for men no shorts. I'd say 75% of the church doesn't hold strict to the codes outside of church. We do't preach its a sin but for modesty. Some quote Lev on not wearing what pertains to a man or woman. I don't recall men in the bible wearing trousers just knee length tunics and women wore ankle length tunics. Some people have questioned why can women wear knee length skirts but men can't wear knee length shorts. 

The only issue I have is when skirts go high up on the thigh that if she bent over or sits in he choir seats its like Basic Instinct. 

My father inlaws church s and offshoot of CoG of Cleveland TN they allow women in pants but not jewelry. He can get so bent out of shape on jewelry but fine with his younger daughter wearing short shorts, bikinis, low cut tops, and mid back wedding dress at least they didn't exchange rings smh. Yet, when I married his older daughter her dress had to go up to her neck or he wasn't walking her down the aisle.  Nothing was exposed before the modification.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 26th 2014, 1:35 pm

Tithing is preached hard in holiness churches. No one brings 1/10 of every tomatoe they grow from their garden just cash. Makes you wonder if thas the whole point to enforcig the ot rule on tithing is $. No one tithes ot style to the letter. If you don't do it 100% don't mandate it as a heaven or hell issue. I feel like its saved by Grace but then to maintain you have to do these laundry lists of works to keep it.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by joecool on April 26th 2014, 2:32 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:There is no new revelation of spiritual truth outside of the bible. Jesus taught us how to pray.

And that's my problem with the whole thing. I am very leery of things that aren't revealed in the Bible. I don't think Jesus drew prayers circle in the dirt, although he did draw something at the imminent stoning of a woman that caused the crowd to back off.

Perhaps extra-Biblical stuff has always been a problem for churches to deal with. But it does seem like there's been a lot of it in recent years. Prayer circles, laughing, gold dust and feathers. Somebody on this site is always preaching about holding to the simplicity and clarity of the gospel and pointing out the foolishness of all these contemporary man-inspired books. He is so right.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Claymore on April 26th 2014, 2:47 pm

I agree with you Dan. Jesus said that, to whom much is given, much shall be required. I truly don't think that God will require someone with severe Down's Syndrome to give as much as a man who owns three McDonald's restaurants with gross receipts of $680,000.00 per month.

The Rich Young Man in Matthew 19 was "jumping through the hoops" of obeying the Law, but his HEART (aka money) was not with the Lord. "Legalism" can judge Money & Actions, but it cannot measure "Love".

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 26th 2014, 4:51 pm

I can't see how some preacher wearing $5k suit he wears 3 times before he donates it being able to relate to me when he tells me I can't receive communion because I didn't tithe on a birthday gift which was cash. I do an internal eye-roll and smh when I hear give God 1/10 and live off 90%.  Who lives off of Ninety percent. I lose 30% in taxes and SS. Now add Obamacare and you might get lucky to keep 50% of your wages. I personally feel there is no nt instruction for Christians to be required to pay tithes or go to hell!  Generous giving yes but no mention of tithes. There is a big difference tithing and giving. Tithes are like taxes they are paid and mandatory. Giving is done of one's free will choice. Using Abraham tithing to Melchisadek is often cited but is cited incorrectly. Abraham tithed of 1/10 of the spoils of war not 1/10 of all he had gained previously. Jacob makes a tithing offer to God of this for that meanng if you do this I will tithe. Doesn't sound like it was mandatory prior to the law but voluntarily offered. 

We delve into many topics on legalisms in the modern church.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 26th 2014, 5:01 pm

joecool wrote:
RRCmdrBennett wrote:There is no new revelation of spiritual truth outside of the bible. Jesus taught us how to pray.

And that's my problem with the whole thing. I am very leery of things that aren't revealed in the Bible. I don't think Jesus drew prayers circle in the dirt, although he did draw something at the imminent stoning of a woman that caused the crowd to back off.

Perhaps extra-Biblical stuff has always been a problem for churches to deal with. But it does seem like there's been a lot of it in recent years. Prayer circles, laughing, gold dust and feathers. Somebody on this site is always preaching about holding to the simplicity and clarity of the gospel and pointing out the foolishness of all these contemporary man-inspired books. He is so right.

I think its always been a problem just today is the digital age where it can spread like wildfire. In days of old things could be contained now we converse with people we'll not likely meet face to face on this side of Glory. $ is definitely a motivating factor.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by ccm2361 on April 26th 2014, 8:23 pm

I too am very leary when people treat the writings of man as if it were Gospel.

Which why I shy away from the elements of the gospel according to rick warren that is being worked in to Rangers.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Mark Jones on April 27th 2014, 2:06 pm

I praise God and hope soon to be rid of this other gospel of rick warren. A scheme of man only goes as far as the money runs out.

A new breath is breathing this way. I hope the guy looks and acts like Johnnie Barnes.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by joecool on April 27th 2014, 2:40 pm

Mark Jones wrote: A new breath is breathing this way.

You know something we don't?  um 

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Mark Jones on April 27th 2014, 4:11 pm

Yup...but I haven't seen it in print yet. There is hope in the future!

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by joecool on April 27th 2014, 4:28 pm

Mark Jones wrote:Yup...but I haven't seen it in print yet.  There is hope in the future!

It's out. I just received a couple of forwarded e-mails from my district commander. Doug Marsh will be back at the helm of Int'l RR within 6 months. A search for a new US national commander has started.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 27th 2014, 4:52 pm

joecool wrote:
Mark Jones wrote:Yup...but I haven't seen it in print yet.  There is hope in the future!

It's out. I just received a couple of forwarded e-mails from my district commander. Doug Marsh will be back at the helm of Int'l RR within 6 months. A search for a new US national commander has started.

Like in the movies I think I hear a heavenly choir!  

I don't cae what he looks like as long as he acts like JB or at least RM I'd be happy to get back to camping outdoor focused ministry. I just hope national presbytery won't be pushing the new guy to go further down the same road.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Mark Jones on April 27th 2014, 5:00 pm

Well the last 8 Commanders I talked to said with no hesitation.  GOOD!  It's about time.  

We may need to change the National Leadership of the AG now to get them out of the Rick Warren rutt so Rangers can once again be a Christain Ministry instead of a purpose driven business plan ported out to the church.  That ole devil has deep roots and that purpose driven life stuff is like Gold to the devil.  So he won't give up with out a fight. He has had us long enough. I am encouraged today hoping for a return to a better camping program and back to RTK boys and girls for Christ.
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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by strods on April 27th 2014, 9:52 pm

Instead of rangers 2.0 or 3.0, how about b2b, Back 2 Basics. I don't know if we could completely go back to JB, but we could easily go back to Christian Scouting. At least those who left it.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Claymore on April 27th 2014, 10:40 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:

I don't cae what he looks like as long as he acts like JB or at least RM I'd be happy to get back to camping outdoor focused ministry.


Are there any left at National Level after, "The Great Get-Off-The-Bus Purge of 2.0"?

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by joecool on April 27th 2014, 11:30 pm

From an e-mail sent by the senior director of children's ministries...

"A key moment will take place in late May, called a Royal Rangers Summit. This will be a gathering of a small group of leaders, comprised of members of the RR Executive Committee and those who are not, to create an opportunity to meet with national office leadership. Our objective is to better understand the realities facing our churches and boys today and understand how we leverage current successes to propel us into the future."

More corporate verbage, this time from the guy who will hire the next national commander. They all talk alike, they all think alike, they all walk alike. Really? They need to better understand the realities that face those out in the field? What have they been doing the last decade? And who selects the non-executive commanders who will be given the awe-inspiring privilege of meeting the people who are so highly placed that you need an oxygen mask to be in their presence? We need the opposite of yes-men to speak truth and tell them what they might not want to hear. I nominate Mark.

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Claymore on April 28th 2014, 12:05 am

SECOND!!!!!

Mark has been Nominated and Seconded.

All in Favor?

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Re: The Circle Maker

Post by Mark Jones on April 28th 2014, 9:12 am

One thing about it. When someone resigns they are not satisfied with what they are doing in the ministry or some isn't happy with them or their results.

I liked the JB method as it wasn't a bunch of paper work. It wasn't keeping track of a bunch of nonsense. All it was was RTK boys for Christ with 1 to 3% going to the GMA. We had some 18 merits that we could prepare for and were easily repeatable with the props we needed. We were good at these things. Boys KNEW skills.

I would be glad to talk to George Wood and the Committee. Yet here is a start for the next National Commander.

1. IF you don't like to camp your not considered useable management. (this means your to wrapped up in self to allow a little discomfort man up and be a man.)

2. If you don't work with boys your not considered useable management. (Grass Roots)

3. If you use words like, World Class, Market Share, Team Leadership, Absolutely, you get the gist, your not considered useable management. We are sick and tired of the bull.

4. If you think we need to use a pencil for more than patrol corners in each Ranger meeting your not considered useable management. Rangers must be hands on.

5. If you think Rangers should be the all in all to everyone. Just do us a favor and go join a sunday school class somewhere. We want someone that is focused and knows who they are and what they are doing.

6. If you think one and done is the answer for a boys development you have no clue. Do us a favor and go sell patches some place else. A discipleship program repeats it's self time and time and time again. Get focused and teach them something so they will know it.

That should filter out about 99% of the slag.

What I would give to see a man that had common sense a love for camping and scouting that wanted to do his very best to RTK boys and girls for Christ.

Mark Jones
p.s. I am not against Sunday School Teachers, Sports, Fine Arts type things. YET they are a BAD fit for Rangers. With out focus we are lost.
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