Small Church Survival

by **joecool** January 31st 2024, 6:45 pm

Do you attend a small church or a big church?

To help clarify the difference, perhaps you would accept a number of 150 or less as small, and 151 up to 400 as big. (Yeah, the 21st-century parameters have shrunk.) Beyond that would be very big and mega. I attend a church that averages 85 a week, and I suspect most of you are in a small church, too.

I'm taking my last ministerial course, in which a Springfield biggee said that 80% of AG churches are in "decline." They're getting older and smaller, or as I would say, the "born again" rate is lower than the "gone on to heaven" rate. Small church America may be in a crisis. And yet, this last course is primarily presented by mega-church personalities, whose observations and recommendations sound to me like they'd only work for other mega churches.

Well, I no longer fret over the numbers. As the Rapture nears, I'm more concerned about quality over quantity. I'm tired of seeing people de-church themselves. I pray they haven't lost their salvation. So most of my time goes towards strengthening the saints. Hopefully, there's a trickle-down effect through them.

Survive or thrive? The latter is infinitely better, but how? If your small church is thriving, how do YOU do it?

by **joecool** February 3rd 2024, 12:52 pm

I'm half-way through this course, and I've already written a draft of my final paper. Hopefully, it will apply to what I'll be asked to do.

After an inspiring beginning to the course, which focused on the Holy Spirit (after all, He is in the course title), it devolved into man-made fluff. It very much feels like it was presented by mega-church pastors...for other mega-church pastors. Small churches don't have the time and other resources to spend a minimum of 6 months to vision-cast and develop core values. (And aren't those already in the Bible?)

I already shared with my online instructor that much of the material resembles that which cratered Royal Rangers. His response was for me to pick and choose what I want to use. That's all well and good, but the material was blessed from on high by the Springfield staff and is being promoted as something that we need to do.

"Cut and paste" leadership doesn't work well. Every church's DNA is different, but there's something that we can all do:

Follow what Jesus said. Do what He did. Emulate the church in the second chapter of Acts. Preach the simple Gospel. It works. America's culture is nothing special. There is nothing new under the sun. Paul shared the Gospel with hostile cultures, and so can we.

by **joecool** February 3rd 2024, 6:01 pm

The national directors of the AG ministry to rural churches are from my neck of the woods. I've had lunch with them in the past, and they were visiting my church last week. I've just reached out to them to consider my proposal:

A "forumotion" for pastors and leaders in small churches to provide advice, information and encouragement to others in small churches. Nobody knows them like their peers. Nobody knows their challenges like their peers. If the above directors think it's a good idea, they can quickly get the word out, much more easily than I ever could. The number of members could grow by tens, instead of ones. Think of it as a force multiplier.

And it wouldn't cost a dime. I've learned a lot on Ranger Chat, and I can see a good way to set up a small church forum. I also think there's a couple of guys on here that could answer any questions that come up. Why not learn from the pros?

by **Claymore** February 3rd 2024, 10:08 pm

joecool wrote:Do you attend a small church or a big church?

I'm taking my last ministerial course, in which a Springfield biggee said that 80% of AG churches are in "decline." They're getting older and smaller, or as I would say, the "born again" rate is lower than the "gone on to heaven" rate. Small church America may be in a crisis. And yet, this last course is primarily presented by mega-church personalities, whose observations and recommendations sound to me like they'd only work for other mega churches.

I take no glee in the following statement; only doing a biopsy/autopsy of the current situation.

I think that the Assembly of God Church had a powerful anointing, back in the mid-20th Century. These were the days of great expansion, Royal Rangers being formed and exploding into the biggest church-based scouting organization in the world, evangelism was flowing out into the world, record-breaking churches were being formed and exploded in size.

And then....

The Headquarters became more interested in the "Business of Religion" than in Religion.

Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart became huge successes. They were broadcasting around the world and were raking in cash and attendees to the Assemblies of God.

Royal Rangers became a "cash cow" through uniform & materials purchases and chartering fees (and bringing more boys and families to A/G churches).

Because their benefits outweighed their sins, the AG Leadership "covered" for Bakker and Swaggart for as long as they possibly could. Finally, when the sheets were pulled back from the affairs, Springfield had to admit to the obvious and swallow the bitter medicine of parting from them.

They continued the financial shenanigans with Royal Rangers: Changing the uniforms and materials, to require outposts to completely re-outfit every six years (and not ever announcing a "wear-out date", so you may unknowingly purchase books, numerals and district tabs for your uniforms in August, only to find that they are no longer authorized in October). After that, came the Final Ponzi Scheme of requiring you to re-purchase your books and materials, every year, (oh, and Springfield doesn't pay for paper, binders, or ink; you do that).

And let's not forget that Camp Eagle Rock was given to the Royal Rangers as a boys' camp. Headquarters called on ALL Royal Rangers to come and build it to a world-class outdoor headquarters, and when the work was complete, THEY took it to be the A/G Retreat Center (but Royal Rangers could use it, too, "thank you so much"). And when A/G HQ stopped turning a profit on Eagle Rock, they SOLD it (to a private entity who wants to use it for Rangers,,) ironic.

And what is the result? The Organization has lost its anointing. I believe that there are still good Christians, good Pastors, and good Leaders in the Organization, but the Pure Covering Mantle of the Holy Spirit has become Dry-Rotted, because the Church sought mammon, over sanctification.

Let's face it: Can you think of a better word to describe the above actions by Headquarters than "Shenanigans"?

Much the same has happened to America. We were founded to be ".....a more perfect union..." under Judeo-Christian ideals, with unlimited opportunities for freedom and growth. Instead of seeking those ideals, we have chased self-gratification and anarchy. I believe that the little bit of grace that remains in America's boiler was steam created from the first 175 years of our existence, and the coals that generated that steam are dying out.

I don't know how to make it come back. God had to take some pretty drastic steps with the ancient Hebrews to draw them back to His bosom. I'm not sure that many of us would want to endure such "motivation".

I am glad that I am old, and do not have to see the "end of the book". I'm not angry, I'm not bitter, but I am saddened to see what our political and spiritual leaders have done, when they were given such wonderful assets and decided to manipulate them, according to their own will.

by **joecool** February 3rd 2024, 10:32 pm

Ouch! The above post hurts, but alas, I can't argue against it. I looked through some other threads for one of my earlier posts, but I can't find it. It had to do with the non-response from higher levels of the AG to my queries. My conclusion was that we're pretty much on our own out here. Help isn't coming from the cavalry. It's coming from Calvary.

We, the 80% of churches that are declining, need to understand that and deal with it. Instead of complaining that we're in fly-over country, we need to ask that the Holy Spirit flies over us.

by **Phillip Gross** February 3rd 2024, 10:37 pm

Well said Claymore. It's frustrating to see so many churches having tried to reach out using man's wisdom in decline. That's probably what has drawn me to the new church we started attending. It's a little more organic. There's real excitement about outreach and helping people through and out of addictions. Our second Sunday visiting, there was a family sitting in the row ahead of us. If I were to profile and put them into a category, it would be "freaks". Dad had purple hair. Mom had a rainbow of colors. One of the little boys had orange hair. Mom was also wearing pajama pants (do people go out in public in pajama pants where you guys live?). Both parents also had dermis piercings. (A stud stabbed into their face). And as I sat there thinking "what in the world?", I was challenged. They were there in church as a family. They had their Bibles with them. They entered into praise and worship and paid attention to the message. They are totally different than me in lifestyle, but they are in church seeking the Lord. May I look at people through Jesus's eyes and learn to love them how He loves them.

I think we need to see more purple haired people in church.

by **Claymore** February 3rd 2024, 11:37 pm

Phillip Gross wrote:Mom was also wearing pajama pants (do people go out in public in pajama pants where you guys live?).

Only at WalMart.

Phillip Gross wrote: Both parents also had dermis piercings. (A stud stabbed into their face). And as I sat there thinking "what in the world?", I was challenged. They were there in church as a family. They had their Bibles with them. They entered into praise and worship and paid attention to the message. They are totally different than me......

Hey, if the early Dominican and Franciscan missionaries to Africa turned away everyone with a "bone through their nose", they wouldn't have had any customers.

by **Claymore** February 4th 2024, 1:26 am

OK

Here's a thought for you....

Now, I do not believe that God will ever cause a good man to fall. However:

WHAT IF, knowing the underlying immorality in Bakker & Swaggart's hearts, God ALLOWED them to fall to their own weaknesses in order to test Springfield as to whether they would immediately disassociate the church from any relationship with the debauchery and (as the Catholic Church calls it) the "Near Occasion of Sin" of those ministries....

or

If they would attempt to overlook, rationalize, and cover-up the aforementioned immoral conduct, because the perceived loss of money and attendance would be considered to be "too great", much the same as the Catholic Church has been known to have been guilty of?

Can we get some discussion.....

CLASS?????

(Ooh! Subject: Same Test, Different Church.)

by **Phillip Gross** February 4th 2024, 7:36 am

That line of thinking is way above my pay grade. I believe in free moral agency, so I believe that man can choose to give in to the lusts of the flesh, or the drawing of the Holy Spirit throughout life. I'm sure the Lord checked their spirits and they refused to change their ways. Everything done in darkness will eventually come to the light to be seen. I think it was a natural law of course. Then, yes, the church leaders also had choices to make in relation to whether they would be follow their own fleshly desires, or the leading of the Holy Spirit. But was it all intertwined in a larger CIA style plot on a spiritual level? I have no idea...

by **ccm2361** February 4th 2024, 6:39 pm

Phillip Gross wrote: (do people go out in public in pajama pants where you guys live?).

Sadly, yes. I see that a lot in the morning when I stop at a gas station for caffiene.

Phillip Gross wrote:I think we need to see more purple haired people in church.

I think maybe you are right

by **ccm2361** February 4th 2024, 6:46 pm

Claymore wrote:Let's face it: Can you think of a better word to describe the above actions by Headquarters than "Shenanigans"?

Nailed it. agreed

by **ccm2361** February 4th 2024, 6:51 pm

joecool wrote:Do you attend a small church or a big church?

Brother, do I know small church. Our average Sunday attendance is 12. (Counting Pastor & his wife) We have been hovering between 12-15 for a couple of years.

joecool wrote: Well, I no longer fret over the numbers. As the Rapture nears, I'm more concerned about quality over quantity.

I agree. The quality of teaching is very good at our church. No milk here. Pastor digs deep into the Word.

by **ccm2361** February 4th 2024, 7:42 pm

Claymore wrote:

WHAT IF, knowing the underlying immorality in Bakker & Swaggart's hearts, God ALLOWED them to fall to their own weaknesses in order to test Springfield as to whether they would immediately disassociate the church from any relationship with the debauchery and (as the Catholic Church calls it) the "Near Occasion of Sin" of those ministries....

or

If they would attempt to overlook, rationalize, and cover-up the aforementioned immoral conduct, because the perceived loss of money and attendance would be considered to be "too great", much the same as the Catholic Church has been known to have been guilty of?

Can we get some discussion.....

CLASS?????

(Ooh! Subject: Same Test, Different Church.)

An interesting notion.
The Word says God will use what the enemy meant for harm... God will use for good.

Springfield is very obviously been overly concerned with money for quite a while. Ever since we heard the phrase "drive the economic engine of Royal Rangers" from Doug Marsh, it has been one cash grab after another. Now, that said, I do not know a lot about how the current administration is doing, but I haven't heard anything negative. Karl Flieg even seems to be trying to undo some of the Marsh administratons policies.

Claymore wrote: the Catholic Church

Hoo boy, now there is a subject I could go on about for a while.
They remind me much of the Pharisees of Jesus' time. They have traded the good news of the Gospel for mans traditions & idolatrous heathen blasphemy.

by **joecool** February 7th 2024, 3:28 pm

Thoughtful article from a young man. He addresses the need to develop future leaders and pastors from our own congregations...to stay in our own congregations.

https://churchreset.substack.com/p/did-we-accidentally-create-our-own

by **joecool** February 9th 2024, 12:09 pm

joecool wrote:The national directors of the AG ministry to rural churches are from my neck of the woods. I've had lunch with them in the past, and they were visiting my church last week. I've just reached out to them to consider my proposal:

A "forumotion" for pastors and leaders in small churches to provide advice, information and encouragement to others in small churches. Nobody knows them like their peers. Nobody knows their challenges like their peers. If the above directors think it's a good idea, they can quickly get the word out, much more easily than I ever could. The number of members could grow by tens, instead of ones. Think of it as a force multiplier.

And it wouldn't cost a dime. I've learned a lot on Ranger Chat, and I can see a good way to set up a small church forum. I also think there's a couple of guys on here that could answer any questions that come up. Why not learn from the pros?

The above director is onboard with the idea. I asked him if we should get Springfield's blessings on it. In a word, he said "No." I believe churches need help now, not after a 1-year review process, etc. My pastor is also gung-ho. We will meet next week to nail down the name of the forum and its topical organization. Then I'll create it for a trial run, before we spin up the publicity mill.

by **Claymore** February 9th 2024, 8:11 pm

joecool wrote:
joecool wrote:The national directors of the AG ministry to rural churches are from my neck of the woods. I've had lunch with them in the past, and they were visiting my church last week. I've just reached out to them to consider my proposal:

A "forumotion" for pastors and leaders in small churches to provide advice, information and encouragement to others in small churches. Nobody knows them like their peers. Nobody knows their challenges like their peers. If the above directors think it's a good idea, they can quickly get the word out, much more easily than I ever could. The number of members could grow by tens, instead of ones. Think of it as a force multiplier.

And it wouldn't cost a dime. I've learned a lot on Ranger Chat, and I can see a good way to set up a small church forum. I also think there's a couple of guys on here that could answer any questions that come up. Why not learn from the pros?

The above director is onboard with the idea. I asked him if we should get Springfield's blessings on it. In a word, he said "No." Churches need help now, not after a 1-year review process, etc. My pastor is also gung-ho. We will meet next week to nail down the name of the forum and its topical organization. Then I'll create it for a trial run, before we spin up the publicity mill.

I think THAT is correct:

Not to be negative, but:

Not only is the "1-year Review Process" an issue, but we have seen how Church Headquarters has worked with the old "Official" Royal Ranger Forum.

If you have a question or difficulty in implementing some program or policy that comes from Springfield, you are NOT allowed to ask for help, or even to mention it.

"To do so will result in receiving a YELLOW CARD, and the next offense will result in your being silenced....."

(Ask Dan and Chris about the specifics of that implication,)

by **joecool** February 12th 2024, 11:50 pm

joecool wrote:I'm half-way through this course, and I've already written a draft of my final paper. Hopefully, it will apply to what I'll be asked to do.

I've completed the course, with the exception of the final. Based on my periodic short papers, my professor would like me to cover Helping Small Churches. Great! I'm all over that. But...it's not a paper. It has to be in the form of a video, and I have to post it on YouTube.
affraid

Sigh. I'm Technology-Challenged. Well, if something's too easy to do, it's not worth the effort, right?

by **Claymore** February 13th 2024, 2:46 am

Actually, the skill of giving a video teaching presentation may actually be THE goal, as much as the subject material.

Our pastor (61 years old, but pretty tech-savvy) of a little church with Sunday attendance of 85 people, has had to give video classes for our state, and also teaches college-level courses for churches in Africa over the internet.

Even though I, personally, do not care for it, classes/sermons/presentations over the computer are here to stay.

To quote that great prophet, Doug Marsh, "......get on-board, or get off the bus....".

by **joecool** February 16th 2024, 7:22 pm

Did a deeper dig into the AG's 2021 report on small churches (under 100 in attendance):
- 22% were growing
- 24% were steady
- 54% were declining
And before we blame COVID, the report also said that the percentages have been going in this direction for the last 25 years. Somewhat surprisingly, medium and large churches are in the same boat.

In other bad news, a multi-denominational survey was released last month that indicates 54% of pastors are considering leaving the ministry. A big jump from 2021, when it was 37%. We need to give our pastors all the help and encouragement that we can.

A couple of days ago, I was scrolling through a Small Church Pastors page on Face Book. A pastor was looking for advice. He has been at a small church for about 3 years, working hard to help it recover. The chairs in the very small sanctuary are filling up, so he asked the treasurer to come up with a plan. He's meeting a lot of resistance, including a refusal to tell him how much money the church has. Leadership is also not much help. And this is a pastor who hasn't taken a dollar in salary. Prompted me to pray for him right then.

by **ccm2361** February 20th 2024, 7:33 pm

Claymore wrote:To quote that great prophet, Doug Marsh, "......get on-board, or get off the bus....".

BOOOOOOO Hissss thumbs down

by **Claymore** February 20th 2024, 7:44 pm

ccm2361 wrote:
Claymore wrote:To quote that great prophet, Doug Marsh, "......get on-board, or get off the bus....".

BOOOOOOO Hissss

Ha-Ha, Chris.

I figured that one would get to you.

LOL

by **joecool** February 23rd 2024, 2:50 pm

joecool wrote: My pastor is also gung-ho. We will meet next week to nail down the name of the forum and its topical organization. Then I'll create it for a trial run, before we spin up the publicity mill.

I adopted my pastor's recommended Forum title, "Small Church Community." I've also started to develop it online, but it's tough. Even the YouTube tutorials are sometimes contradictory. Chris, can you come over and help me out? There's bear meat sticks in it for you.

by **joecool** February 24th 2024, 1:01 pm

Hey, Chris, are you out there?

I've managed to make a fair amount of progress on my new forum. But it looks nothing like Ranger Chat. For example, I can't get the Categories to show up. It's just a long list of forum topics. And there isn't a Portal option. I imagine I'll be discovering a lot more as I start posting threads.

It seems like all the YouTube tutorials are 10+ years old, about the time you set up Ranger Chat. So they're not much help to me.

by **ccm2361** February 25th 2024, 9:58 pm

joecool wrote:Hey, Chris, are you out there?

Yep

Boy its been so long...

The portal is a setting that has to be turned on.

by **ccm2361** February 25th 2024, 10:01 pm

Ah yes

Its on teh administrstion panel under the "DISPLAY" tab & then the "TEMPLATES" section

by Sponsored content

Small Church Survival

Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Re: Small Church Survival

Sun	Mon	Tue	Wed	Thu	Fri	Sat
			1	2	3	4
5	6	7	8	9	10	11
12	13	14	15	16	17	18
19	20	21	22	23	24	25
26	27	28	29	30	31