Breaking in the new guy

I thought that his wife was all set up to run that.

She's a leader with no one to lead. My wife will still be doing Rainbows, but that's it. All the other groups have no teachers. It's funny, just about the only things they didn't change were the ones that dealt with preschoolers (Wed and Sun). Not in their comfort zone, I guess.

Earlier this week, one couple met with all our elders to lay out their concerns. Apparently there are 6 families getting ready to bail out. Don't know what has them riled up (I could make an educated guess, though), or how that turned out. Three years' worth of unrest and upheaval. Can't go on forever. When attendance is down 60%+, and you're not sure if it's bottomed out yet, you start thinking... and keep praying.

joecool wrote:She's a leader with no one to lead.

We had a saying back in "Group".

"When everyone's deployed except for the Sergeant Major, and the grass needs cutting, the Sergeant Major cuts the grass."

joecool wrote:Three years' worth of unrest and upheaval. Can't go on forever. When attendance is down 60%+, and you're not sure if it's bottomed out yet, you start thinking... and keep praying.

So would there have been any changes or additions that were coincidentally made at/about that time? It might give you a clue.


Here's the shame. If folks got disgusted and left and went to another church, you won't get them back; and you should not try to. They are in a new Church-Family now.

The proper thing to do is to try to bring in unchurched or inactive people to rebuild. But it's a whole lot easier to try to steal fish out of someone elses basket.

Claymore wrote: So would there have been any changes or additions that were coincidentally made at/about that time?  It might give you a clue...But it's a whole lot easier to try to steal fish out of someone elses basket.

Some bone-headed pastoral decisions that he was warned not to make...going on a burnout-induced sabbatical...hiring the wrong new guy...alienating key members...running off office staff...drifting from makeover to makeover...For example, we've gone from small groups to connection groups to life groups. New names, but it's still lipstick on the same pig.

At this point, I'm starting to think that getting a new skipper for the fishing boat is the only thing that will help. He's 60 and has an eye on the district superintendent's position. He's the assistant super now. But to be electable, I'm sure he knows he has to keep his finger in the bilge hole until after the next vote happens in 1 and 1/2 years. It all feels like the loaves and fishes story in reverse.

joecool wrote: He's 60 and has an eye on the district superintendent's position. He's the assistant super now. But to be electable, I'm sure he knows he has to keep his finger in the bilge hole until after the next vote happens in 1 and 1/2 years.

Oh, Good Idea!!

Get him out of the church by promoting him over the entire District.

One of the worst officers that we got had been a cop in a middle-sized police department.  When we called to do a background check, they said "Oh gee!  He's a fantastic cop!  You're taking one of our best."  (They LIED their rear-ends off.)

That guy was one of the biggest screw-ups.  He got suspended a couple of times for misconduct (stupid decisions), and eventually got fired with a State-Court Criminal Case over his head.

(Oh yeah.  Maybe that wasn't a case of cops protecting other cops.  We did the investigation, ourselves and nailed him a felony conviction. No more Government Job; no more authority to carry a gun.)

Claymore wrote:  When we called to do a background check, they said "Oh gee!  He's fantastic."

Sounds familiar. When the lead pastor announced his intention to bring in the new guy, one of the leaders said he could call up there and check him out. Lead pastor said not to do that, he knew him from district work, great guy and all of that. Much later, that leader did call his last church, and was told our new guy was a "train wreck."

Well, you can delegate Authority, but not Responsibility.

(FM 22-100, Military Leadership)

Well, we're losing our youth pastor. A big, clumsy guy who has a hard time getting any inertia going, but he's someone who loves Jesus and the kids. It leaked out at the beginning of summer, and he's gone in 3 weeks.

Haven't heard anything about his replacement. He was part-time and didn't get paid much, but we're in a year-long season of not making budget. I know the "new guy" needs more responsibilities to justify what he's getting paid, but still...a scary thought.

My youth center team stands ready to be an interim solution, and we let our pastor know that a month ago. Not one word in response, not even a thank you for giving him an option.

I was out of town this past weekend, but an elder informed me of a church announcement made yesterday. We've all heard the expression, "My heart sunk." Now I know that it's not an exaggeration. It really felt like that. Our senior pastor announced that the new guy is going to be the youth pastor, in addition to his other duties.

The elder told me that we're going to lose what few teenagers we still have. With the addition of other information that surfaced last night, he is getting ready to have the "it's time to move on" talk with the senior pastor. It's been two years since his emergency sabbatical, and we're still nose diving. It won't be pretty. I pray that both sides keep Jesus in the middle.

It sounds to me, like what your Pastor has done is a "Putsch".  He has stationed his own like-minded people in strategic places to take over power, then he removes those people in the slots that he wants his own followers to move into.

There are 3 ways to halt this:

#1. If your church is hierarchical, and must follow the dictates of the State Headquarters or Diocese, then petition them to have him removed, or

#2. Move on to another church, and leave behind all of your church-acquaintances and work & tithes that you have invested over the years, or

#3. If your church is self-governing and self-autonomous, then do the work, yourselves, of having him removed (this is called a "coup")

"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing", Thomas Jefferson.

Claymore wrote: If your church is self-governing and self-autonomous, then do the work, yourselves, of having him removed (this is called a "coup")

It came to me this week that over the years the senior pastor has hired loyal and supportive staff, but not effective staff. The last good one we had left 9 years ago to bigger and better things.

Interestingly enough, I've just finished a book titled Church Coup, written by a forced out pastor. There was a little group of influential people, supported by a jealous ex-pastor, that ended up ruining a very successful church. Each chapter closes with a list of things that the board, pastor and congregation could have done, instead of what did happen. The pastor now runs a ministry for struggling pastors and churches, trying to help them turn around before they part ways. I've talked with him and he says it's time to let ours go before we shrink to the point of no return.

joecool wrote: Our senior pastor announced that the new guy is going to be the youth pastor, in addition to his other duties. The elder told me that we're going to lose what few teenagers we still have.

I'm told that the new guy's big idea is to use the youth as his children's ministry helpers. So, in essence, we have no youth group anymore. He's run off all the adult help we built up, and he's in a bind. And when you don't effectively deal with problems, they cascade from ministry to ministry. He looks like an untrained river raft guide who is in control of the dam's spillway, and says "Release!"

Not eager to see more carnage, my wife and I are considering sitting down with him in a couple of weeks. We could ask him what he's planning for all the children's ministries this fall, to see where we might fit in. But there's no way we want to work under his thumb again. What to do? What to do?

"Chaos" is one activity in which it is more enjoyable to be a Spectator than a Participant.

Claymore wrote:"Chaos" is one activity in which it is more enjoyable to be a Spectator than a Participant.

And that's just it. I have a ticket to attend, but the ink is smudged. I don't know if I'm supposed to be a spectator or participant. Do I jump in, which is my nature, or do I stand back to get a sense of the big picture? What's God doing here?

My personal (uneducated) opinion is, "Let him fail".

If you attempt to help, you would be supporting a corrupt regime.

I had thought of his idea of using the Youth as helpers for the younger classes.  That will last about 2 months.  When they start thinking of church as Toil, they will stop coming.  No young person wants to take 2 hours out of his week to work without a tangible reward pending.

Eventually, you must let the world see that the Emperor has no clothes.

Yeah, I know. I weep at watching our church dwindle month after month, year after year. Fortunately, an elder (who is the most highly thought of) knows time has run out on making the inevitable decision to let the senior pastor go. And he specifically told me that leadership will accept the new guy's resignation, or ask for it.

I think my focus needs to "center" on opening up the new youth ministry.

joecool wrote: Our senior pastor announced that the new guy is going to be the youth pastor, in addition to his other duties. The elder told me that we're going to lose what few teenagers we still have.

The new guy hasn't even taken over as youth pastor, and 3 families took their teens to another youth group. And yesterday, the senior pastor announced that we're going to a single service at the end of the month. We've lost so many people that the sanctuary echoes, and there's not enough workers for two services. So, we keep dropping things, which leads to fewer people and tithes, so we keep dropping things, which leads...

You catch my drift. It's a never-ending, vicious circle. All we're doing is reacting, instead of being proactive. One pastor is burned out, and the other one has no wick to even light. Two board members see where this is all going. Now they have to educate the others, so that the right action is taken to turn things around.

joecool wrote:Yeah, I know. I weep at watching our church dwindle month after month, year after year. Fortunately, an elder (who is the most highly thought of) knows time has run out on making the inevitable decision to let the senior pastor go. And he specifically told me that leadership will accept the new guy's resignation, or ask for it.

Hey, what ever happened to the coup d'état?

I was Special Forces. We like coup d'états.

The only thing that Castro ever did right was his coup d'état of Fulgencio Batista in 1959.

(Am I being too subtle?)

Claymore wrote: The only thing that Castro ever did right was his coup d'état of Fulgencio Batista in 1959.

And they ended up driving the same old Chevys for the next half century. (Actually, there's some charm in that.) If this whole thing isn't handled right, it'll break the church and the faint laughter we hear will be from below. The best thing is for the pastors to read the writing on the wall and volunteer to resign. The right words, the right questions, at the right time, should lead to this. It's a sad thing, but also inevitable. Can't remember if I said this before, but a church consultant I talked with said 3 things:

1) When a pastor is already burned out when he goes on sabbatical, he rarely regains his effectiveness;
2) When a church has lost as many people as you have, the pastor who presided over the loss will never turn it around; and
3) Be careful not to pass the point of no return before you act (most say it's a one-third loss...we've already lost half)

The new guy just called my wife, asking if she was going to teach this fall. "No." He then proceeded to tell her what will be happening on Wed nights.

Royal Rangers and Missionettes are officially dead at our church. (The new guy ran off all the leaders.) In their place will be a boys and girls class, called Neighbor Kids. Crafts, games and guest speakers. Whatever.

And we continue to slide into the abyss.

Oh heck! So what are you guys going to do now?

My wife has her hospital volunteer work and you already know I work with the police. Next week we start homeschooling a grand-daughter 3 days a week. And of course, we open up the youth center this fall 3 nights a week. Ain't retirement grand?

So, other than just attending church, we're not involved in any of its dwindling ministries. That feels unnatural to us, after the better part of 40 years' working for the Lord. The wife and I knew that the new guy was heading for a major melt down this fall, and considered jumping back in there to pull him out of the fire. But he needs to be held accountable. Might seem cold, but if you knew him like we know him...

I think the only thing that would be "cold" about it would be if you desired him to melt down and fail miserably just because you want him to PAY for his deeds. If on the other hand you genuinely hate it for him that he's making horrible decisions, yet determine that the only way for him to realize that and see the fruits of his labors, then no it's not cold.

Sometimes after telling little Judah "be cateful" about something, I have to allow him to fall down so he realizes that he should have listened to dad. Pain is an excellent teacher, but that doesn't mean I desire for him to be hurt. I just love him so much that I know that a little pain along the way may save his life in the future by helping him mature.

So to me, it's all about you and your wife's hearts and motives. If your hearts break for the individuals involved (including the new guy), but know that there must be some pain along the way to bring maturity, then you're not cold at all.

Also, don't confuse frustration and hate. I believe that you can choose to love him and pray earnestly for him, and yet simultaneously be frustrated beyond measure at his decisions and attitudes.

Just my opinions though.

Since Rangers is dead, I thought about offering to buy some of the outpost equipment (especially a heavy box of donated leather-working tools), as ministry funds are drying up. But then I thought, what if Rangers is resurrected after the new guy is gone? Perhaps I'll wait and see how it all turns out.

I would rat hole it away. These clowns come and go. Prepare for when they are gone. Look out..they might try and give your RR stuff away.

It didn't take me very long to realize all the hours and time I have invested in RR ministry tools needs to be safe guarded from the wolves in sheeps clothing. I own and maintain a lot of gear. Yet our outpost can use it like it's their own. Things that need fixed or sharpend or replaced that are in service with the outpost are submidted for replacement.

If it's your property they have a heck of a time giving it away.

I have had this happen to me before. Now in our Church at Central we have a pretty strong core of folk but even at that it can all go to the auction floor. A camp ground that was donated to the royal rangers was sold and the monies went into putting a new roof on the church. So... my advice is to keep it where your thumb is over it.

I have hundreds of hours invested in stuff... not all of it the outpost owns. Some of it they do own.

Mark Jones