Gold Dust and Feathers

joecool wrote:Our church's Fall small group offerings were available for sign-ups yesterday... minus one of them. It turns out that the gold dust ex-elder was approved by pastor to teach one. But someone saw it Thu night at worship band practice. After an exchange of texts with pastor, the class was pulled.

What was the class about? There wasn't a book or curriculum (maybe not even the Bible) to review. His class was an opportunity for people to share their supernatural experiences with each other.

Our pastor is very much aware of what we all went through before his arrival. How could he approve it? More to come, I'm sure.    

1 Corinthians 13:11 KJV
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Sitting around telling ghost stories isn't very mature in a church setting. Seeking "experiences" of the supernatural is mysticism. We walk by faith not by sight. I'm not Thomas or an early church believer who needs a sign or miracle to believe. Too many immature believers lining pockets of authors entertaining them with 15 minutes in Heaven.

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Too many immature believers lining pockets of authors entertaining them with 15 minutes in Heaven.

On the plus side, pastor's sermon last week included "Don't buy all the latest books out there to the exclusion of spending time with the original Word."

joecool wrote:

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Too many immature believers lining pockets of authors entertaining them with 15 minutes in Heaven.

On the plus side, pastor's sermon last week included "Don't buy all the latest books out there to the exclusion of spending time with the original Word."

We had a message about that recently too!

Too many aren't satisfied with Sola Sciptura!

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Sitting around telling ghost stories isn't very mature in a church setting.  Seeking "experiences" of the supernatural is mysticism. We walk by faith not by sight.

I hear what you're saying, Dan. I'm not against a class that seeks to share past supernatural experiences. Where would Pentecostalism be if it was kept under a basket? I was against a particular person leading it, as he was part of the original "superior clique" that brought gold dust and feathers theology to our church. It started badly and ended badly, and almost closed the doors. He has yet to turn away from that movement, and return to 100% support of the fundamental beliefs of the AG. He had seemingly left our church, but returned when we hired a new senior pastor. He immediately became his shadow, and I believe that he is trying to regain his former position as an elder. At least a couple of us former deacons don't trust him, and keep an eye on things. I guess you could say we're shepherds without portfolio.

Supernatural experiences have been shared throughout OT/NT times, as well as today. Hearing them can be very encouraging to others, especially when heard from friends or those we have familiarity with. But when they become the impetus for people to seek signs and wonders for signs and wonders' sake, that can lead down a dark path. And just like Motel 6, I'm going to keep the lights on.

joecool wrote:

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Sitting around telling ghost stories isn't very mature in a church setting.  Seeking "experiences" of the supernatural is mysticism. We walk by faith not by sight.

I hear what you're saying, Dan. I'm not against a class that seeks to share past supernatural experiences. Where would Pentecostalism be if it was kept under a basket? I was against a particular person leading it, as he was part of the original "superior clique" that brought gold dust and feathers theology to our church. It started badly and ended badly, and almost closed the doors. He has yet to turn away from that movement, and return to 100% support of the fundamental beliefs of the AG. He had seemingly left our church, but returned when we hired a new senior pastor. He immediately became his shadow, and I believe that he is trying to regain his former position as an elder. At least a couple of us former deacons don't trust him, and keep an eye on things. I guess you could say we're shepherds without portfolio.

Supernatural experiences have been shared throughout OT/NT times, as well as today. Hearing them can be very encouraging to others, especially when heard from friends or those we have familiarity with. But when they become the impetus for people to seek signs and wonders for signs and wonders' sake, that can lead down a dark path. And just like Motel 6, I'm going to keep the lights on.

I hear what you're saying but unless God inspires you to write or share its best kept to one's self. Even Paul said somethings were unlawful to speak.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 10:4 KJV
[4] And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Number of times Jesus instructed people to keep silent when he performed a miracle. Inevitably a class of people who are sharing stories will pursue that. Others who haven't had an experience may wonder why they aren't as good special as the rest. Some will be tempted to exaggerate or even make up a story.

John 20:29 KJV
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I don't have to be awed or wow'ed by others experiences. I believe Him even when I never seen a miracle. I like Joni Eareckson Tada's comments that she lets pentecostals pray for her if they want. She knows it's primarily about physically healing. She said before you do that please pray that I am less cranky in the morning lol. She went onto list more requests for personal character traits or fruit of the Spirit to develop in her. I think we overlook them because its not as showy and flashy as a miraculous sign gift.

1 Corinthians 13:11 KJV
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

In a spiritual sense many sign seekers are like this verse acting like children going after every new thing.

joecool wrote: I was against a particular person leading it, as he was part of the original "superior clique" that brought gold dust and feathers theology to our church. It started badly and ended badly, and almost closed the doors. He has yet to turn away from that movement, and return to 100% support of the fundamental beliefs of the AG. He had seemingly left our church, but returned when we hired a new senior pastor. He immediately became his shadow, and I believe that he is trying to regain his former position as an elder. At least a couple of us former deacons don't trust him, and keep an eye on things. I guess you could say we're shepherds without portfolio.

Went to a meeting after church yesterday, requested by our pastor. I believe he was attempting to quell bad feelings between the two camps on gold dust and feathers. The "particular person"/former elder above took the opportunity to get a lot of things off his chest. He also insisted that, at the district superintendent's meeting from 18 month's ago, that both sides' positions were 180 degrees out from what the rest of us remember. Our pastor jumped in to basically say, "Looks like this whole thing was just a miscommunication. Let's move on together."

After some more talking, the former elder let slip that he believes Jesus was born with a sinful nature. I glanced at the pastor and saw his eyes opening wide as he sat back in his chair. It was a defining moment, and I believe that he will have his guard up from now on.

joecool wrote:

joecool wrote: I was against a particular person leading it, as he was part of the original "superior clique" that brought gold dust and feathers theology to our church. It started badly and ended badly, and almost closed the doors. He has yet to turn away from that movement, and return to 100% support of the fundamental beliefs of the AG. He had seemingly left our church, but returned when we hired a new senior pastor. He immediately became his shadow, and I believe that he is trying to regain his former position as an elder. At least a couple of us former deacons don't trust him, and keep an eye on things. I guess you could say we're shepherds without portfolio.

Went to a meeting after church yesterday, requested by our pastor. I believe he was attempting to quell bad feelings between the two camps on gold dust and feathers. The "particular person"/former elder above took the opportunity to get a lot of things off his chest. He also insisted that, at the district superintendent's meeting from 18 month's ago, that both sides' positions were 180 degrees out from what the rest of us remember. Our pastor jumped in to basically say, "Looks like this whole thing was just a miscommunication. Let's move on together."

After some more talking, the former elder let slip that he believes Jesus was born with a sinful nature. I glanced at the pastor and saw his eyes opening wide as he sat back in his chair. It was a defining moment, and I believe that he will have his guard up from now on.

The idea of a sinful nature in Jesus is ludicrous. Not surprising since some think he the second member of the trinity could have sinned because he was "tempted" in the wilderness. Both are heresy imho. It would make God a gambler and potentially a liar if his OT prophets lied about a Messiah that would save them but failed.

Did he explain what would lead him to believe that?

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Did he explain what would lead him to believe that?

Wish I wrote down the verse, as a sloppy reading of it could lead someone to be confused. But it had a key phrase (the appearance of) that he failed to notice. That's what Bill Johnson (source of all this heresy) does, though. He first comes up with his theology, and then finds verses that he can twist to support it.

Yeah, seen that.

I once heard a preacher's wife announce from the pulpit that Jesus turned the water into non-alcoholic wine.

Now, if a person wants to personally adhere to a Holiness Standard, that is admirable. but don't go sticking words into the Bible that aren't there, because you don't like the way that it is written.

If you are making up stuff about this Reading, then what OTHER things are you making up stuff about?

Some folks have said that wine in Biblical times had little-to-no alcohol in it. It made Noah get falling-down drunk and lay in his tent, naked, and curse his family; and it got Lott drunk enough to get one of his own daughters pregnant (sounds like that stuff had a pretty-good kick to it).

Maybe they had a lower tolerance back then....

I really should let it go at some point, but it's hard. Did a little research to see what's new in "Bethel" land. A picture of the senior pastor's car in the church parking lot was available...a $200,000 Aston Martin. A real piker. The associate pastor posted a picture of himself with his new ride...an exotic sports car that I couldn't identify, but had to be in the half million dollar range.

If you work hard, you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor. But these guys are leading their flock astray, the very ones who finance their lifestyle.

I agree. Good Leadership is worth its Pay.

However,

God's resources should be used wisely. I had a talk with a (Christian) relative who had mentioned that someone had spent $10,000.00 for a hip replacement for their dog. She said, "If they really love their dog, they should be able to do that."

I agreed that it is their money, and they have the right to use it as they see fit, but that much money could be used for something like missions to introduce Christ to the unchurched.

I said, used in the mission field, that $10,000.00 might be able to bring 500 poor Cambodians to the Lord. Which can you take with you to Heaven: the 500 Cambodian souls, or your dog's artificial hip?

Claymore wrote: Which can you take with you to Heaven...the dog?

Hold on there! Are you saying dogs DON'T go to Heaven?

You're WAY overthinking this thing.

Go back to EMMM

Enlisted
Man
Mental
Mode

Claymore wrote: Go back to EMMM

Never lost it. That's why I don't use diplomacy when talking about Bill Johnson. He's a serial spiritual abuser. His little kingdom will one day come crashing down. Unfortunately, his flock will look for another leader like him. "Thank you, sir! May I have another?!"

Claymore wrote:I agree.  Good Leadership is worth its Pay.

However,

God's resources should be used wisely.  I had a talk with a (Christian) relative who had mentioned that someone had spent $10,000.00 for a hip replacement for their dog.  She said, "If they really love their dog, they should be able to do that."

I agreed that it is their money, and they have the right to use it as they see fit, but that much money could be used for something like missions to introduce Christ to the unchurched.

I said, used in the mission field, that $10,000.00 might be able to bring 500 poor Cambodians to the Lord.  Which can you take with you to Heaven: the 500 Cambodian souls, or your dog's artificial hip?

God's sovereignty and providence he can make a storm capsize your boat, a whale or big fish transport you to Cambodia, and the ability to speak Cambodian and preach. God isn't limited by lack of funds or man's "free will".

joecool wrote:

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Too many immature believers lining pockets of authors entertaining them with 15 minutes in Heaven.

On the plus side, pastor's sermon last week included "Don't buy all the latest books out there to the exclusion of spending time with the original Word."

Hebrew or Greek?

Claymore wrote:Yeah, seen that.

I once heard a preacher's wife announce from the pulpit that Jesus turned the water into non-alcoholic wine.

Now, if a person wants to personally adhere to a Holiness Standard, that is admirable. but don't go sticking words into the Bible that aren't there, because you don't like the way that it is written.

If you are making up stuff about this Reading, then what OTHER things are you making up stuff about?

Some folks have said that wine in Biblical times had little-to-no alcohol in it.  It made Noah get falling-down drunk and lay in his tent, naked, and curse his family; and it got Lott drunk enough to get one of his own daughters pregnant (sounds like that stuff had a pretty-good kick to it).

Lot actually pregged both daughters made two evil nations. Wine without alcohol isn't really wine. Joel Osteen's wife said something like Jesus was just an ordinary man like us till God touched him.

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Wine without alcohol isn't really wine.   

Right-On.


And Grape-Juice that causes a Goat-Skin to burst ain't Grape-Juice.

Claymore wrote:

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Wine without alcohol isn't really wine.   

Right-On.


And Grape-Juice that causes a Goat-Skin to burst ain't Grape-Juice.

The goat skin comment made me chuckle. How some must perform eisegesis to keep their theology and supporters intact.

Last week in a teachers' meeting, the new-ish music guy responded to a comment about the recent K-6 Christmas program, which went very well. "Yeah, that one song I really like is from Bethel Church. The singer wears dreadlocks and his group's stage performance is a little weird, but I didn't let the kids see the video for practice, just listen to it.

Haven't decided yet whether to say anything to him. He already seems to recognize something's amiss with Bethel, but it should have steered him clear on his own.

It's hard to sit back and watch the younger folk make major mistakes. Yet most will just not receive what we tell them.

I can remember in my earlier days in Rangers. I would suggest this and suggest that...and the older guys would say...that doesn't work. I looked at them and did the same thing most other folks do... well their just out of touch and need to be moved on.....grin. I found out for myself they were right all along and I had to come back and say... well you were right. As the years went by I learned to ask them. What do you think of this idea? They got excited about ideas that hadn't been tried before and in some cases we had success with it.
Yet I learned when they said that don't work.... to take it on faith that it doesn't work and to continue doing the stuff that does work.

Some folks head the advice. My conscious is clear when I tell them...that doesn't work and here is why.

Yet I will still in a nice way try and tell them. Not embarrassing them unless their foolish enough to make a FOOLS statement in the group..then I will call them on it and for the record tell them it doesn't work. "Talk about making friends"....yet I can still look them in the eye and know I loved them enough to tell them the truth.

Mark Jones

A friend forwarded some info to me, so I dug in a little deeper. Always, always look at the fruit a ministry produces.

Bethel, the gold dust church, recently did a 180. There's an Australian ministry that uses what they call "destiny cards", in order to reach New Agers. They even sent a team to Bethel to teach their people how to do it. They got called out by others saying they were tarot cards (I've seen them...yeah, they're tarot cards). At first, Bethel's response was to condemn the use of the cards, saying there was no place in ministry for it.

Then the founders of the Aussie group reminded Bethel that they were the parents of a former Bethel pastor (who now does gold dust in Europe). Bethel then turned around and said that everything was "fake news", and now supports them. The Aussie group also maintains a website, and they proudly post videos of themselves in action. The videos include nudity.

This fruit is rotten.