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New Tactical Rifle Smith & Wesson M&P AR-15 (open MSR topic)

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 20th 2013, 7:25 pm

As I stated on the July Thread I put $ down on an M&P AR-15. Regular price at Fin Feather and Fur is $1099 but on sale for $879 with no sights. Of course Gander Mtn wanted $1499 for same gun and no sights. I had thought of price matching but I'd rather give my bizness to Fin than to price gougers. Only benefit is its closer and layaway is 90 days but they want 40% down instead of 10% at Fin.

I have fired only 4 shots from AR-15 last September. I know very little about about tactical rifles and would like to hear any tips from anyone who owns these types of guns.

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Post by Claymore July 20th 2013, 10:36 pm

My first love in a tactical rifle was the 7.62 NATO M-14. But as I get older and situations have shifted from a Battle Rifle on the Plains of the Midwest to the woods of Mississippi (where 100 yards is a long shot), the AR-15 is handier.

I will not use a .223 for deer again, but that is another topic.

The AR-15 works. The military has stuck with it since about 1966. I have not had jamming problems with an M-16/AR-15, providing that it is made with quality parts.

If you try to keep it "white glove" clean, you will go nuts (one of my problems with it). As soon as it fires the first round, it pukes carbon and exhaust gas all over the bolt carrier, bolt, and firing pin. But when you clean it, just get the carbon off with some solvent, and leave a light coat of cleaner/lubricant (like Break-Free) on the moving/touching parts.

Back in my day, we only had 55 grain full metal jacket ammunition (Geneva Convention). Now the bore twist is set up for 62 grain ammunition or heavier (that's a 15% difference). So don't expect 55 grain ammunition to hit in the same place as 62 grain.

You're not in the Army, so you don't have to use FMJ ammo. Find some reasonable-priced factory loaded soft-point ammo that your rifle likes, and you will have a good defensive set-up.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 20th 2013, 11:01 pm

Everyone else is welcome to make comments or ask questions even if you don't own one.

I'm also interested in learning about what add-ons are worth getting and which are junk. Specifically scope types and their pros and cons. Initially I want open sights.


Last edited by RRCmdrBennett on July 21st 2013, 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Phillip Gross July 20th 2013, 11:06 pm

What's an "MSR topic"?
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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 21st 2013, 12:49 am

Phillip Gross wrote:What's an "MSR topic"?

MSR means, "modern/military sporting rifle". Talk relating to the M&P AR-15 or any MSR is welcomed. I will not use the term, "assault weapons/rifle" so MSR is the proper name for these firearms.

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Post by Claymore July 21st 2013, 5:23 pm

Insofar as using a .223 for deer. I have tried it, and shall not do so again.

In 40 years of deer hunting, I know of only 2 deer that I have hit & lost, and they were both with a .223. The first was a buck that was quartering away from me. I could tell that I hit it, but it ran off, with no blood trail to track it.

The second was a doe with a good side-hit. I had stepped up to Barnes Triple-Shok Copper Solids ($2.00 per round), that were reported to be good on game up to the size of a small elk. She left a moderate blood trail in new snow. I attempted to track her for 2 days, but did not find her.

Now, I will not use a .223 for much other than defense and coyotes. I did pick up an AR-15 in 6.8 SPC. Wikipedia says that it has 40% more energy than the .223. My figures come closer to 30% (1,650 to 1,700 ft/lbs as opposed to 1,325 ft/lbs).

I may give it an honest try for our moderate-sized Mississippi white-tails.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 22nd 2013, 6:37 am

.223 though in the hi-cal range does have a small diameter only .003" larger than a .22. So unless your going for a headshot probably a .243 or .270 and above is better. Here in Ohio we're a shotgun only state for deer. We are allowed rifles for all other game. Only exception to the deer gun rule is muzzloading rifles can be used in regular gun season and blackpowder season.

I was thinking of using the AR-15 for hunting coyote. One it'll be my only hi-cal rifle and second it'll dispel the myth that people don't use MSR's for hunting.

Do MSR's come chambered in anything other than .22LR, .223, or .308?

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Post by Claymore July 22nd 2013, 10:21 am

AR-15's can also be gotten in 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .300 Whisper, .300 Blackout, 7.62x39 Soviet, .458 SOCOM (2,700 ft/lbs of energy) .500 Beowulf, and probably a few more calibers.

For most of that ammunition, you will be paying between $60.00 and $70.00 per box of 20 rounds. I can find 6.8 SPC at Wal-Mart for about $24.00 per box.

The main factors limiting the ammunition for an AR-15 are that it cannot be longer than a 5.56 round (to fit in the magazine), and the case rim cannot be a whole larger than that of a 5.56.

In AR-15's chambered for the 7.62x39 Soviet, so much metal is removed from the bolt face that there are concerns with some shooters that there is not enough metal remaining to do the job.

The .458 SOCOM and .500 Beowulf have “rebated” rims. The rims are actually smaller than the cartridge body, so that they can fit on the bolt face.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 22nd 2013, 2:51 pm

I've never a retailer offer the other chambers. Why can't they be more than 5.56mm long?

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Post by Claymore July 22nd 2013, 3:13 pm

5.56mm is the Diameter of the bullet (approx .224 inch). Maximum length is about 2.26". Anything longer will not fit in the magazine. People have made barrel diameters as much as .50 Caliber (which is the largest sporting diameter allowed by the Machinegun Act). But you’re going to have a pretty heavy barrel to go around that 1/2-inch hole.

I have noticed that even my 6.8 Remington SPC barrel makes my AR-15 a bit heavy.

Insofar as retailers: those other calibers are not "stock" and are semi-custom production guns.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 22nd 2013, 3:19 pm

Someday I may get another in .308 cal

As for optics I've heard of open-sights, ghost, red-dot, holographic, telescopic, etc. are there anymore types. I've seen some small telescopic and long ones. What are the pros and cons of each? What would you recommend each for and what is your favorite to use and why?

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Post by ccm2361 July 22nd 2013, 5:57 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote: MSR means, "modern/military sporting rifle".


I thought it meant Military Style Rifle Dunno 

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Post by Claymore July 22nd 2013, 6:00 pm

Depends.

If you want to make 400 yard shots over open country, Peep Sights or a Scope rule, but they are terrible in a dark Mississippi woods at dusk or in your house when you hear a "Bump in the Night".

For quick shots under 100 yards in variable-light conditions, Red-Dots or Holoscopic sights rule.

If you have the money, you can get a magnifier to go with your Holoscopic or Red Dot scope.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 23rd 2013, 12:42 am

ccm2361 wrote:
RRCmdrBennett wrote: MSR means, "modern/military sporting rifle".


I thought it meant Military Style Rifle  Dunno 

I've seen it in ads read as, "modern sporting rifle". http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=MSR the 26 MSR Down where it says weapon calls it modern sporting rifle. The www.nssf.org/MSR/ uses the same definition. Others have dubbed it, "military style rifle". I've used that term before as well. Either way the MSR acronym is accurate. I prefer the modern sporting rifle as it doesn't associate it strictly as a weapon of warfare.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 23rd 2013, 1:06 am

Claymore wrote:Depends.

If you want to make 400 yard shots over open country, Peep Sights or a Scope rule, but they are terrible in a dark Mississippi woods at dusk or in your house when you hear a "Bump in the Night".

For quick shots under 100 yards in variable-light conditions, Red-Dots or Holoscopic sights rule.

If you have the money, you can get a magnifier to go with your Holoscopic or Red Dot scope.

Do red dot scopes require a battery like holographic sights?

Would I be off base to say that I could point the AR-15 rifle without sights (intuitive shooting) at someone and just point and shoot point blank range and hit the target? I figure most rooms in people's houses are 15 ft or less.

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Post by Claymore July 23rd 2013, 2:32 am

I wouldn't trust my life on it.

About 30 years ago, we had a local dirtball aim a pellet pistol at one of our officers in a dark back-yard. The officer fired (justifiably). It was with a Smith & Wesson Revolver with no night sights. The guy was about 15 feet away, and the officer shot into the ground (and I knew him; he was an experienced shooter, but he didn't know where his front sight was).

For an inexpensive room clearing rig, I took a CAR-15, mounted a decent quality ($75.00) light with a pressure pad and put an inexpensive fixed 3X scope on it. Since the scope was low-magnification, you could easily see the cross hairs with the illumination that the light put on your target, and no batteries needed for daytime shooting.

If you are going to be clearing your house at night, you will need a light, anyway.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 23rd 2013, 7:37 am

The AR I shot last year had a pressure pad for a light. How much would you expect peep sights and a light to go for?

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 24th 2013, 1:24 am

I was talking to a friend after service tonight and he showed me a video of himself shooting the M&P15! He bought the same gun I put on layaway! He loves it.

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Post by Claymore July 24th 2013, 11:15 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote:The AR I shot last year had a pressure pad for a light. How much would you expect peep sights and a light to go for?  

I'm working on this.

I'll see what I can find.

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Post by RRCmdrBennett July 29th 2013, 10:42 pm

Any luck?

Here's an article that explains the hunting capability of MSR's. it has a bit in there about .223 being to weak for deer hunting but good for coyote and varmint hunting. http://www.policymic.com/mobile/articles/24640/gun-control-myth-the-ar-15-is-not-actually-a-hunting-rifle

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Post by RRCmdrBennett August 6th 2013, 9:21 pm

What is the x45 or x39 after 5.56 or 7.62 refer to? The .223 doesn't gave that measurement added as far as I can see. Will my gun only chamber certain 5.56mm rnds with a certain X number after it?

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Post by Phillip Gross August 6th 2013, 9:39 pm

First number is diameter and then second is the length. For instance the AK-47 is chambered for 7.62x39 where my Mosin Nagant is chambered for 7.62x54R (rimmed).
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Post by RRCmdrBennett August 6th 2013, 10:52 pm

When I buy 5.56mm ammo I have to be sure to get it the length correct? If not I can't fire certain 5.56mm ammo? Is .223 cal all one length so it doesn't have to specify?

This link provides full specs.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764994_-1_757784_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

All I see is 5.56mm/.223 but no length measurement.

Is the x39 milimeters?

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Dan Bennett
Sr Commander (2007-2016)
N Central Area Communications Coord, CI (2016)
RR Outpost #215, Ohio District :flag:
RR GMA #83 Potomac Dist-#2366 Nat'l

"Be Ready, It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark."

fire FCF Frontiersman 9/91 fire
Free Trapper 2016
Training Seminars/Camps:
LTC LMA 5/94, Ranger Basics 1/05, LTA LMA 5/05, NTC IL 5/09, WCO 10/09, ICS 4/10, RKTC 7/10, Ranger Essentials 8/10, NRMC 10/11,
Outpost Leader Advancement Levels:
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Post by RRCmdrBennett August 24th 2013, 9:54 pm



Last edited by RRCmdrBennett on August 26th 2013, 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Dan Bennett
Sr Commander (2007-2016)
N Central Area Communications Coord, CI (2016)
RR Outpost #215, Ohio District :flag:
RR GMA #83 Potomac Dist-#2366 Nat'l

"Be Ready, It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark."

fire FCF Frontiersman 9/91 fire
Free Trapper 2016
Training Seminars/Camps:
LTC LMA 5/94, Ranger Basics 1/05, LTA LMA 5/05, NTC IL 5/09, WCO 10/09, ICS 4/10, RKTC 7/10, Ranger Essentials 8/10, NRMC 10/11,
Outpost Leader Advancement Levels:
LMA-Advanced 10/11, MoE 2012-092

RR v1.0

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Post by Claymore August 24th 2013, 10:28 pm

He is quite full of himself.

In Viet Nam in the early-mid '60's, M-16's were issued without cleaning kits, and described as being "self-cleaning weapons".  Numerous U.S. troops died, because of jammed rifles in combat.

If you are on a 200-yard shooting range, it may not matter if you are increasing your chances of a malfunction.

If you are on the "2-way Rifle Range" (where you shoot at the Pop-Up Targets, and the Pop-Up Targets shoot back at you), I recommend that you do not push the odds.

His arguement is like saying, "I have made 100 parachute jumps and never used my reserve.  Therefore, a reserve parachute is not necessary".

For my first 189 parachute jumps, my reserve 'chute was just a waste of weight.  On #190, I was really glad that I had it.

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