Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

by **Claymore** August 28th 2015, 4:01 pm

joecool wrote: After a few months of discussions, the pastor and elders decided upon an "apology" service. They apologized for not dealing with problems, not listening to people's concerns, and a general air of spiritual superiority. But not a word about the Bethel Church controversy.

"I'm Sorry!"

(I'm sorry that I got caught, and was unable to get away with what I was trying to pull off.)

by **joecool** August 28th 2015, 7:02 pm

Closely related to this kind of apology - "I'm sorry if anyone was offended."

If the Bill Johnson teachings are not denounced, then many people will leave, including former and current deacons. If his teachings are denounced, many people will leave, possibly including a couple of elders. And either way, the pastor needs to go away as well. This problem is on top of all his other problems. I fear it's going to be a rough September.

Speaking of apologies, part of me is sorry to have to bring this to the forum. But the rest of me needs to share it with my brothers. I've said before that your support has helped to get me through a rough couple of years. Thanks for being out there.

by **Claymore** August 28th 2015, 8:04 pm

The problems that you are having with your church are either problems that others of us have already encountered, or problems that some of us will encounter in the future.

It's just your turn.

(It's like someone had said to me in the past, "If the Chief of Police is so unfair, then why hasn't he screwed me over?" My answer: "It's not your turn, yet.")

by **RRCmdrBennett** August 28th 2015, 9:04 pm

Claymore wrote:The problems that you are having with your church are either problems that others of us have already encountered, or problems that some of us will encounter in the future.

It's just your turn.

(It's like someone had said to me in the past, "If the Chief of Police is so unfair, then why hasn't he screwed me over?" My answer: "It's not your turn, yet.")

I like that response. I have heard others say well that mgr treated me alright but they screwed the rest of us. I guess it wasn't your turn yet.

by **ccm2361** August 29th 2015, 11:21 am

Claymore wrote:The problems that you are having with your church are either problems that others of us have already encountered, or problems that some of us will encounter in the future.

Exactly right Gold Dust and Feathers - Page 3 3452256262

by **ccm2361** August 29th 2015, 11:23 am

Claymore wrote:
joecool wrote: After a few months of discussions, the pastor and elders decided upon an "apology" service. They apologized for not dealing with problems, not listening to people's concerns, and a general air of spiritual superiority. But not a word about the Bethel Church controversy.

"I'm Sorry!"

(I'm sorry that I got caught, and was unable to get away with what I was trying to pull off.)

Sadly that seems to be what 90% of apologies today are from people who are caught in the act of something Rolling Eyes

by **RRCmdrBennett** August 30th 2015, 7:37 pm

I had one of those kind of apologies last week at home.

by **joecool** September 3rd 2015, 4:07 pm

The Bill Johnson book was pulled a couple of hours before the small group started. Imminent danger averted, but we're not out of shoal waters yet. Bethel's influence still needs to be purged.

In related news, our elders had a not-as-secret-as-they-think meeting with the district superintendent last Friday. Stay tuned.

by **Phillip Gross** September 4th 2015, 4:19 pm

joecool wrote:
In related news, our elders had a not-as-secret-as-they-think meeting with the district superintendent last Friday. Stay tuned.

Do you think they truly wanted it secret, or just the guise of being secret, but knowing that people would find out. Basically a "shot across the bow" type move....?

by **joecool** September 4th 2015, 5:31 pm

Our elders don't do tactical moves. They're more like molasses, trying to keep everything slow and sweet.

by **Phillip Gross** September 4th 2015, 10:44 pm

joecool wrote:Our elders don't do tactical moves. They're more like molasses, trying to keep everything slow and sweet.

I don't identify. I'm more like sandpaper. Rough, painful, and I make a lot of sudden moves for effect. Laughing

by **joecool** September 21st 2015, 8:07 am

As traditional protocol requires upon a pastor resigning, our three elders submitted their own resignations. The deacons said they wouldn't accept them, and wanted the men to stay on to help with the transition. One elder alluded to the Bethel stuff, saying that it needed to be aired out before keeping them. So that's the topic for their next meeting.

That's good. What's not so good is that we might lose two elders. Have your way, Lord, and make it clear to all.

by **joecool** October 21st 2015, 9:58 am

On Saturday, our district superintendent was asked what he thought about Bethel Church's influence in Montana. He said that of the 6 churches involved with it, 5 are failing. All you have to do is look at the fruit of what was planted. "I'm shocked!"

by **ccm2361** October 25th 2015, 2:22 pm

joecool wrote:On Saturday, our district superintendent was asked what he thought about Bethel Church's influence in Montana. He said that of the 6 churches involved with it, 5 are failing. All you have to do is look at the fruit of what was planted. "I'm shocked!"

That's very telling. wow

Your church leadership needs to hear that often. Mr Green

by **Claymore** October 25th 2015, 6:07 pm

It's really a fine line that we need to walk.

On one hand, we can't really call ourselves Pentecostals, if we hold to the belief that there haven't been any real movements of God since Jesus' Ascension (or of the Movement that was the Founding of our own particular Denomination).

On the other hand, we can't hop on every "Jesus People" Band Wagon that comes down the street (because there are bound to be some Frauds and some people misled by their own emotions.

I guess that's where the "Gift of Discernment" comes to play. Unfortunately, it seems that many of us (Christians) don't exercise our "Discernment" Muscle as much as we exercise out Tongue Muscle.

by **Phillip Gross** October 25th 2015, 10:13 pm

Talked to a guy about situations like this and he made a great point. He basically said that he doesn't doubt that there could be gold dust, feathers, gold toothe fillings, etc, etc etc, but that that's not what we're supposed to focus on even if it happens. We're supposed to keep our focus on the Father instead of worshipping signs, and/or angels. Even if an angel manifested and walked down the Isle of the church, we should focus on the father, not the angel.

I thought that was a good way to put it. He didn't discount, or deny the possibility of things like that happening, but rather insisted that regardless of those wild things happening, we need to keep our focus in the right place. I agree. This guy went to church in Pensacola Fl, and lived through the Brownsville revival. He's seen a lot of supernatural manifestation and has learned that you don't focus on the manifestation, but rather the manifestor!

by **Claymore** October 26th 2015, 1:16 am

Phillip, I have never heard it explained better.

For some reason, we gravitate toward elevating People, Movements, or Manifestations and wanting to follow THEM, instead of GOD.

And many of our churches almost encourage this by calling certain individuals "Saint", "Apostle", "Blessed", etc.

And even those who are (supposed to be) Spiritually Educated can often propagate this mistake. I have heard Pastors, from the pulpit, refer to some other Preacher as, "That Great Man of God".

Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? Only God is good."

Well, some of our modern-day Super-Duper Preachers are above "Good". They are "Great".

by **joecool** October 26th 2015, 9:57 am

The elders keep putting off any discussion on Bethel. We have an interim pastor coming in 3 weeks. An IP's ministry is to help a church through the transition period until a new senior pastor is hired. That includes resolving issues that are hanging out there. It's #1 on some people's lists, including mine.

by **joecool** May 13th 2016, 5:15 am

The pastoral search committee has it narrowed down to a top-3 and is presenting the list to the deacons. Their #1 choice leads three small churches up north, kind of like an old-time circuit preacher. He rotates among them, live streaming to the others.

Unfortunately, it just came out that "He went to school at Bethel." Don't know when. Don't know if it stuck. But they better find out quick. I'm not going through this again. He also has a side ministry of putting on "freedom" conferences a couple of times a year around the state. Not sure we should get a pastor who may not be able to keep his eye on the ball.

by **joecool** May 13th 2016, 1:10 pm

Did more research on the #1 candidate to see "if it stuck". Apparently so.
1) Two years ago, he brought a guest speaker to his church who is affiliated with Bethel and endorsed by Bill Johnson.
2) On the candidate's Facebook page, he lists Kris Vallotton as one of his "favorites". He leads Bethel's Supernatural School of Ministry.

This candidate got his ministerial license through completion of correspondence courses. There's a lot to be said for someone who got a real pastoral degree, sitting under the training and wisdom of experienced professor-pastors for 4 years. They are grounded in church doctrine and are much more likely to recognize excess and bad practices.

by **joecool** June 14th 2016, 10:36 am

Leadership got a letter from resigned elder #2. It seems that he is picking a theological fight. I told one of the deacons that the fight is already over, and not to waste time on it. Just thank him for his opinions and state that he might want to consider a non-AG church.

On a brighter note, our #1 lead pastor candidate will be here in 10 days. A couple of get-togethers, a sermon, and a vote. I have watched him on YouTube and like the guy a lot. He was called to ministry in his mid-20's, and became an AG US Missions guy. Spent a number of years with Native Americans, both on a reservation and at their native university. Then he started a church in Kansas from scratch. You can learn an awful lot from that experience.

by **RRCmdrBennett** June 16th 2016, 12:41 am

What was the theological issue?

by **joecool** June 16th 2016, 8:50 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote:What was the theological issue?

Bill Johnson says that Jesus was 100% man and 0% divine while He walked on earth. It's the linchpin of his theology. "Hey, we can do anything that Jesus did, because we're 100% man, too."

The wife of resigned elder #1 is still sharing Bethel stuff on Facebook. And still current elder #3 is making a little noise, too. He wants to know why a certain pastor finalist didn't get an interview. (He was dropped after we found multiple connections to Johnson theology.) As soon as we vote in a new pastor, elder #3 must resign, according to our by-laws. Will that end our "gold dust" problems? Probably not until all three elders leave.

by **joecool** August 11th 2016, 10:25 am

New pastor shows up today. The last elder resigned on Tuesday. Elder #1 left for another church (his son is pastor there); elder #2 was the lead gold dust guy, and he comes once a month; elder #3 is still pretty steady.

A deacon called this morning, I think to unburden himself and start fresh. It turns out that our senior pastor had hatched a plan to leave on his own terms...announce his resignation and stay until we hired a new pastor. (I can't imagine how many more people would have left, including myself.) The three elders were part of that plan, and were going to "run" the business of the church, freezing out deacons, who they felt "weren't up to the task."

But they grossly underestimated the atmosphere in our church, and ended up choking on it.

by **Phillip Gross** August 11th 2016, 12:44 pm

Seems pretty dirty to me. And we wonder why people have a bad taste in their mouths about church....

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