Re: August Thread

[Claymore]

13:19:51

So if you're not Catholic then it's a bad attitude to have? Wow...   classic.

Didn't say that.

I was saying that it is not a good idea for a Pastor to have no accountability to a congregation, and for members to support that notion because he was, "...put there by God".

And here's a first-hand example.

I have been in a Pentecostal Church in which the Pastor preached that his father (also an Old-Timey Pastor) used to discipline him by taking him into the porch, putting a Jimmy Swaggart record on the player, pulling down his trousers, and "whooping" him until the music was over.

And he said that it was an exemplary way to deal with unruly youth, and that we "need more of that today"; all the time while the Bobble-Heads in the Congregation were nodding.

And he was so "Holy-Ghost-Filled" that those Bobble-Heads believed that anything that came from his mouth was directly from God.

Think of what would happen to that Church if someone literally took that Pastor's Preaching and put it into use against some adolescent baby-sitter, because his Pastor said that it was a good idea.  The Pastor, the Church Board, and the Senior Staff of the District & State (and possibly National) could all be Defendants in Court.

The legal definition of the term "Vicarious Liability" is that if a Supervisor or Official knows, or reasonably should have known, of improper behavior, and fails to stop it, then he/she can also be held liable for the act of an employee or subordinate.

You could have the fruits of the tythes & offerings of generations of church members be awarded to some Civil Litigation Attorney all because the members of that church failed to exercise Due Diligence over a Pastor.

[RRCmdrBennett]

Lack of accontability is why there are such Big issues in the Catholic church. They believe they are theocratic and the pope is infallible. Which I wonder is the former pope still infallible...? Man is fallible whether catholic or protestant doesn't matter. When Christ rules in the Millenial reign we'll have true theocracy and His church won't be divided into sects, factions, or denominations. All sheep will be brought into one fold.

[Phillip Gross]

I never said I didn't believe in accountability. In fact, I did say in extreme situations that congregations should in fact take action to fix the situation. I believe you're using extreme situations in rebuttal to my comments which I clearly, I believe, said needed to be fixed by whatever means necessary.

I'm referring to the often petty reasons that a congregation decides that they don't like a pastor. "He preaches too long" He preaches about hell too much", "He doesn't preach about hell enough", "He wants us to praise the Lord, and I think drums, clapping and raising hands are of the devil" etc etc etc. These are things I've heard from fundamental type congregations of various denominations that simply don't want to hear anything that they don't already believe. That's what I'm referring to. Stiff necked people who do it because their dad, granddad, great granddad and so on did it that way. I'm referring to typical human nature that doesn't want to change. Not these egregious acts or extreme examples of power trips that you've (whoever) cited.

I guess I've been blessed not to be involved in these extreme cult-like situations that I hear being thrown around. Yes, those people should leave, or the pastor removed if possible.

[Claymore]

Yes, those people should leave, or the pastor removed if possible.

And that is exactly why we need accountability in Pastors.

In my 61 years on this earth, I have seen 2 Pentecostal churches (total value about 5 Million Dollars) destroyed because a pastor had a "Vision from God", and paid no attention to reason.

As Shakespear said, "Herein lies the rub..."

If a pastor is elected, he can often manipulate a congregation to vote for whatever he wants. If he does not have an immediate majority, he can drive off many of those who may disagree with him, leaving persons who he can manipulate in the voting majority. I saw a pastor have the constition of a church ammended from a pastor having a "term of service" renewed every 3 years to getting lifetime tenure. After that, he did whatever he wanted to that church. When the attendance, tythes, and income fell by 75%, he left, and the church was a mess (he was the first example).

If a pastor is appointed by the Diocese/State/National, they are sometimes reticent to make a change, because he is liked at HQ, or they don't want other pastors to feel unsecure in their positions.

Insofar as the Jewish Religious Leaders are concerned. I think that they didn't have a reputation for making really Stellar decisions, when their personal opinions or dogmas were involved.

[ccm2361]

LThey believe they are theocratic and the pope is infallible.

Talk about the all time classic example of man & his plans.

Do you know that prior to 1870 the pope was NOT officially considered to be infallible? The First Vatican council (1869-1870) decided that the pope (a man) should be considered infallible & his word should carry the same weight as the Word of God!

(it was a popular opinion prior to that but it wasn't official catholic church doctrine until 1870)

[Claymore]

Good bit of Trivia, Chris.

I had assumed that it went back at least as far as the conflict between the Vatican and Galileo in 1633.

[RRCmdrBennett]

Ask him about when the Glories of Mary was accepted. To lighten things up we oughta start-up a trivia game.

[Claymore]

Let's keep it positive.

There is a movement of Catholics who are becoming "Charismatic" and even "Pentecostal".

Trying to get Catholics to join you by insulting their traditions is like attempting to make Jews Messianic by an Outreach through the Ku Klux Klan.

[Phillip Gross]

I remember when I met a saved and Spirit baptized Catholic... I think smoke was coming out of my ears as I tried to get my 16 yr old brain wrapped around it all! I asked if he was Spirit filled, why would he continue going to a Catholic church. He smiled and said, if we (saved Catholics) all left the church, who would tell the others the truth? Then it clicked!

[Phillip Gross]

So I saw a dead woman today unfortunately. I was driving home from a town a couple hours away when traffic suddenly hit the brakes on the interstate. The crash had just happened and witnesses were walking around in the middle of the highway. Apparently a car was run over by a semi. The car was completely torn in half and the rear wheel carriage of the trailer had been ripped out. It was pretty horrific... I prayed for the family that is left behind somewhere. They're going through it tonight for sure. Sure does put things into perspective after seeing things like that.

[sreidelberger]

When is the date of your NRMC?  I was planning on coming up next month to visit with Chris and do some shooting with my new AR. Love to meet you too.

Well the camp is the last weekend in September at Gaylord Mi. I looked it up on the map. Its a little bity town in the middle of nowhere north central Michigan (the big part of Michigan). Its about an 11 hour drive from me. That's not the bad news. When I got to work last night the major gave me a notice that my days off are being changed. I'm getting bumped from Thursday/Friday to Tuesday/Wednesday. That puts a serious cramp on any ranger stuff i want to do on the weekends.

[RRCmdrBennett]

So no NRMC?

I suppose one could say stay in order to sway but their growth spiritually would suffer. How far can we take that. Say for instance a muslim or Jew converts should they keep going to synagogue or mosque? Definitely don't misread me we should keep lines of communication open with the brothers in the parishes but it would be hard to remain silent when I see things being said that aren't scriptural. I know that's going on everywhere to a certain degree. Some more than others.

[Claymore]

Dan, the Catholic Church IS a Christian Religion.

They believe that all Creation comes from God, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He willingly died on the cross to pay the price for our sins, that He rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, that the Holy Ghost came on Pentecost, and that God can (& does) reveal himself through the Holy Ghost.

The problem is that through 2,000 years of tradition, the "Organization" has placed itself in a position of undue importance: a position between Man & God.

Because the Church had to live under Kings who declared that they were "Put there by God", the Church made "Servitude to the Organization" part of their theology.  (Sound familiar?)  This way, the King would allow the Catholic Church to practice Christianity: God is their Heavenly King; Arthur is their Earthly King.

How would you like to pay $40,000.00 for a Bible? A Bible was worth a year's pay, because it took about a full year to copy a Bible by hand, prior to the Gutenberg Press in 1450. For a thousand years, that work was done mostly by Catholic Monks in monasteries.

Even the beloved "King James Bible" was translated by Anglicans (who also called themselves "English Catholics": as opposed to "Roman Catholics").  The Church of England practiced the Sacraments of  Infant Baptism, Eucharist, Confession and absolution, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Anointing of the Sick (Holy Unction).  These are the same 7 Sacraments practiced by the Roman Catholic Church.  

So how could such a Satan-Filled and Corrupt Religion bring forth a correct version of the Bible (a bad tree does not produce good fruit)?

If the Catholic Church is "Not Christian" and is "Satanic", then I guess that you condemn to hell everyone who practiced "Christianity" from the Council of Nicea in 325 AD until Martin Luthor's Reformation in the 1500's?

You can fulfill the rules of the Catholic Church and not be a true Christian.  You can obviously be Christian and not be Catholic.  But one does not, necessarily, exclude the other.

I am definately not saying it is the "True" religion, nor necessarily the "Right" religion.  

Remember that Jesus said to not Judge, so that you wouldn't be Judged, and His parable about the Servant who had his debts cancelled, but refused to forgive another:

“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” (Matt. 18:21-35)

Personally, I do not wish to go before God and take a chance of being called a "Wicked Servant".

[Mark Jones]

Hey it's raining cat's and dogs. Been raining for the past week. We had over 16" of rain in the past 2 weeks.
Lake should be full for the Regatta this weekend. It may be flooded!

We are having a Crafting night tonight Tuesday night from 5:15 pm to about 7pm to paint and develope costume.

I am looking forward to having Thursday - Sunday off work yet the regatta will be exhausting fun!

Worked a 10 hour day yesterday and last Saturday worked my day off. Not much overtime this year. It's been a very lean year for me. Been doing lots and lots of Ranger stuff though...Wooo Whooo Rangers!

Mark Jones

[RRCmdrBennett]

I meant no offense to you or catholics but I do think a Christian would have more freedom and growth potential in another Christian church. There are definitely true believers among them for sure. I don't think anyone is going to reform a church that is almost 2 millenia old. Jesus plainly there are sheep of other folds he must bring into his fold. His intention is and will be to unite all true sheep into one church body and one head. This probably won't happen till the millenial reign.

It was a big mistake to get intwined with politics. Once it became the legal religion of the empire man's traditions began to come in. I do believe that God used the good men in her to preserve His word. He can even use evil for good. Pray for catholics to be saved and for Christian catholics to keep on doing what God has called them to do.

[Phillip Gross]

... but I do think a Christian would have more freedom and growth potential in another Christian church.  

Do you realize how many churches, even "full Gospel" churches, that statement could apply to???

[Claymore]

Absolutely correct, Phil.

There are Millions of Catholics in the World, and many of them will not leave their Church, because it is part of their Cultlure.  If you are Green Irish, you're Catholic.  If you are Portugese or Italian, you're Catholic.  If you're Polish, you're Catholic.

In some places, if you're not Catholic, you cannot get married in your village.

So the solution is not to stick out our tongues at them.  My best friend at the Police Department was Catholic.  He volunteered for Desk Duty for over a year, and during his Down-Time, he read through the Bible, Twice.

At the end of his second read-through, he said to me, "Hey, you don't need the Priest to get to Heaven.  All you need is the Forgiveness through Jesus".  He became a self-taught Born-Again Christian.  He still belongs to a Catholic Parish, and is on the Church Council.  And he is not afraid to profess his Born-Again Christianity.  

He later assisted with some of my Royal Ranger meetings. He said to me, "This isn't a Christian Scout Troop. It's a 12-year-old Special Forces Detachment."

I'm even thinking of having an Outreach to boys from the Catholic and Orthodox (Anglican, Methodist, etc) Churches for Rangers.  Not to convert them, but to show them that it can be fun to be a Godly, Christian Man, and to take that concept home with them.

(Special Forces: Force-Multipliers to the Indigenous People in a Primitive Environment.)

[sreidelberger]

Legalism is a destroyer in many churches. It's not selective. Look at the UPC. Bible believing, spirit-filled Christians living under oppressive rules set on them by "organized religion" all because some church leader way back when read something in the Bible and took it out of context or interpreted it to suit his own agenda. And now they've been under that oppression so long that it's all they know.

I heard a preacher say one time that Jesus is the only way to The Father but there are many ways to Jesus. His point was that as long as your end result is confession of your sins and accepting Jesus as your savior, how you got there really doesn't matter. The Holy Spirit can move in any church, no matter what name is on the sign because the people are the church. It's about the hearts of the people.

[RRCmdrBennett]

All I can say is I can't wait for Christ to reign on earth and all of this denomationalism will dissapear. One shepherd, one fold! No more A/G, cog, cogop, tcog, roman catholic, orthodox, protestant, and so on.

[sreidelberger]

All I can say is I can't wait for Christ to reign on earth and all of this denomationalism will dissapear. One shepherd, one fold!  No more A/G, cog, cogop, tcog, roman catholic, orthodox, protestant, and so on.

Amen!

[Mark Jones]

I have heard and this is funny. The reason God is taking so long to come back is he is trying to arrange all the Christians at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb so they won't be fighting around the table....HAR! Only God could figure that one out...that would be a miracle.

Mark Jones

[Claymore]

I really enjoy reading accounts of "Life After Death" experiences. I believe that God is allowing us to get a "Peek" of the Spiritual World unlike anything since Biblical Times.

There have been some people (mostly non-Christians or persons who knew that they had led a wicked life) who reported very unpleasant experiences.

But most of the Christians have reported being in the presence of a Loving God.

The most important thing that they conveyed at their time of "Transition" was how they treated other people while they were on earth. One man said that when his life was reviewed, it was from the point-of-view of those who were affected by his actions, and that he was ashamed of much of his life.

I never read a report of God asking if they attended a Lutheran, or Methodist, or Assembly church.

[Christi]

I think all the denominations can be both good...ie because when can agree to disagree, besides you might be able to witness to them another day, but another downside to me is when we disagree so much and get legalistic that we loose our witness by our actions and attitudes.  Without the Holy Spirit with us all we have left is this world and no peace.

I have heard it said that none of us is totally right anyhow...and we won't find out till God calls us home.    

[RRCmdrBennett]

Amen Christie.

[RRCmdrBennett]

Later on today I'm meeting with my CE Director about the new Ranger year and renewing tracclub with the church secretary.

Hopefully, Ben will be out of his house at some point for me to bring his special present over for his party on Fri night. Its sorta a combined gift from his GMA CoH and his 16th birthday. He's really been wanting a .22LR rifle and I'm giving him mine. I decided to play a funny on him by giving him a cleaning kit, oil, hoppes #9, and 100 rnds of cci minimag then send him in search of the rifle! I'll throw in the 2 politically incorrect 30 rnd mags.

Of course this mean I need a new .22LR! I'm thinking Ruger 10/22 Takedown. That won't happen till after Aug when the AR-15 is paid off.

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