Re: Breaking in the new guy

by **joecool** May 14th 2021, 6:56 pm

Claymore wrote:You have Wisdom, Experience, Emotional Security, a Supportive Wife, and a Heart for the Lord. I can’t think of a person with better qualifications to be X.O. on God’s Ship.

Would you be my Weapons Officer? Please?
bang

Things are going to get even more squirrelly in the next couple of years, assuming the Rapture doesn't come before then.

by **Claymore** May 15th 2021, 11:24 am

Yesterday, I received a text message from my best friend. He is a former Milwaukee Police Officer, and a current Staff Member at an A.G. Church.

He said that, in a meeting with his Accountant, he was told that his Recreational Ammunition Budget exceeded that of the United States Marine Corps.

by **Claymore** December 2nd 2022, 9:33 pm

joecool wrote:Every once in awhile, I will check the national website and look at the outpost locator. For quite a few years, the only outpost in our state was at a church where the pastor was also the district commander. Looking at the locator tonight, this outpost is now gone. Bummer. BUT, a new outpost popped up in another town. Too bad it's still too far away to commute to. Sigh.

And for anyone who might be thinking, 'Hey, just start up your own outpost,' look at the Breaking In The New Guy thread. It's a heart breaker. A couple of years ago, I checked around to see if anyone would join me in starting up an outpost again. No takers from any generation. People like Claymore are rare indeed. He and Mark will be saying the RR pledge when they keel over.

I went back to the beginning of this thread, and started reading. We chased a few rabbits, but there is a lot of wisdom interspersed within it, also.

The biggest common denominator appears to be when a pastor or youth leader comes to a church with "A Vision". JoeCool, I, and many others have seen this come to pass.

A HUGE warning is when that individual sees something in the program or by-laws of the church that are hindering his fulfillment of that "vision". With JoeCool, the impediments were him and his wife teaching Rangers and Missionettes. I saw a church in Milwaukee, where it was the Royal Ranger program and the church by-laws that required that a pastor be re-affirmed annually.

This individual got both of these out of the way, and then he had free reign. Of course, this lasted for about 4 years, everyone over 35 years of age (who were the financial supporters of the church) left for the church down the road, and then shortly thereafter, he took off, leaving a broken church in his wake.

JoeCool, I would say that, with just changing the names and the location, you could write this as your own experience.

by **Claymore** December 3rd 2022, 2:12 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Its not about building leadership thats the problem but the methods being employed to do it. JB did it through the camping/outdoor program and it worked. These new methods are untested in the 75% of the A/G churches that run under 150 members.

I'll elaborate:

Leadership merits contain a lot of sitting and reading. They were designed as weekend event merits until feedback demanded they produce 5 week lesson plans. Royal Rangers 2.0 was supposed to get kids out of a pool by requiring 2 leadership weekend events. That doesn't draw me neither will it excite them. I do like some of the games they are fun and build leadership. Each group was to exclusively teach its own leadership merit color. Its made for large groups. Their solution was to team up with another outpost. Not feasable in many situations. They relented and allowed DR to team up with AR, AR with DR or ER, and ER with AR.

The original capstone project was unmanageable. A expensive 12 week course you had to run outside regular class.

These were designed by someone (Ryan) who enjoys seminary and college. He had a lot of neat ideas that work on paper but ineffective in the real world of boys participating in a once a week ministry.

I have heard the audios from past LEADs. Doug did say it. I've seen it stated that the Holy Spirit empowers. There is confusion from the top rungs. As Indians would say, "white man speak with forked tongue". Ryan tried to say it works both ways: us empowering others and the Holy Spirit. That would be like saying there's an alternative road to Heaven.

Bible merits (browns) were redesigned to hit 5 core points in each lesson. Now its any 6 lessons with 2 alternatives (SS, summer wed night bible study, children's church, even ER Spirit Challenge lessons). Its been over 3 years and yet we only have 10/24 orange merits.

The way nat'l has behaved and the way your district/section teaches is not always in alignment. Some districts are more inline with Doug et al than others.

Our mission statement focused on reaching the lost for Christ but now its redesigned to give pastors something they want: servant/leaders. The entire RR2.0 paradyne is built on secular business models and marketing. Make old pastors take a new look at Royal Rangers.

Under the "bringing rangers to the ipod generation" slogan we were told we could take camping/outdoors, arts/drama, sports, technology, and trades and it make an exclusive focus for the entire outpost. That was another bright idea from Mr Ryan. Not achievable with the current merits available. Only the camping/outdoors and Sports focus has a chance of being an exclusive focus. Even Sports would be difficult given once a merit is earned its not revisited for another 3 years. That doesn't work in sports you need time and lots of time to practice. Much more time than 1.5 hrs a week allows. Now marches in RR2.0 same focus areas under a new slogan. They realized their error in promoting exclusivity and now its about including all focus areas with not one of them being more dominate than the other. They won't bat an eye if a new outpost doesn't ever go outdoors but if you're outdoors focused you have to do other things equally.

We are a uniformed boys ministry...now we're not. Doug puts out a picture of rangers all the uniforms and one is in jeans and tee shirt. Says all are Royal Rangers but how would you know when he looks like a member of Youth.

I do believe there are different types of leaders. Not all are pastors, deacons, teachers, etc and they do need to be trained. Will most boys be servant/leaders I doubt it will happen the way our nat'l wants it to.

Every time we pointed out these things I listed were issues we were discredits as uninformed kooks, marginalized, and even demonized. Wait for next LEAD and miraculously "the spirit" leads them to backpedal from what they originally claimed the Spirit led them to do in 2008.

National is out of touch with 75% of its churches that aren't mid to mega size like some in the Springfield area. These fancy ideas fly much better in a big church with a bit more $, resources, and manpower. Doesn't work so well in a Mich outpost run mainly by a husband/wife team with no M'ette leaders. Do you try to run 2 programs or just the better of the 2?

Joe, sounds like a political takeover. Putting in new people aka teenagers is just what nat'l has done in Royal Rangers by pushing out the old guys/gals. Teenagers don't know what works and have no experience i the real world. Political leaders try this all the time: Hitler Youth now White House Youth! If he's ousted previous heads of ministries, putting in young people he can manage more easily, and is tight lipped on Royal Rangers future you can bet the guillotine blade is about to fall.

Dan,

This is one of the best dissertations that I have seen in this forum. Thanks.

It deserves to be re-posted and re-read.

by **joecool** December 3rd 2022, 10:14 am

Claymore wrote: JoeCool, I would say that, with just changing the names and the location, you could write this as your own experience.

Every once in awhile, I'll read through old threads, too. Like you said, there are true nuggets among the chunks of pyrite. In a bit of fairness to the New Guy, he was set up by the Senior Pastor. By this time, our church had fallen from 280 to 180. And even though the New Guy had just been hired (we later found out that he had been "rescued"), he was given an impossible job. "Fix it!" is what the Senior Pastor actually told him.

So, with no vision at all, the New Guy went stumbling around and changed everything, and not just RR and M'nettes. He ruined Youth and Family ministries, too. We dropped from 180 to 80 before it was all said and done. But God held us together. With a new pastor, we grew back to 130, until COVID cut us back to 80 again. But we're healthy. The core is strong. No idea what will happen in the future (other than a coming Rapture), but He will see us through.

by **Claymore** December 3rd 2022, 12:28 pm

I am going to say the following at the risk of my integrity stepping all over my tact:

So why is it that clergy members can come into a church, totally destroy things, and have no liability? If a new pastor comes in and takes a church from 80 to 300, he gets recognitions from State HQ, and possibly a big pay raise. But if he takes a church from 300 to 80, he will eventually go on to other pastures, because there are no longer enough sheep to produce the funds that he needs.

If I was the Sergeant in charge of a Military Recruiting Station and our production dropped by 70%, I might face reassignment and a bad Enlisted Evaluation Report. If JoeCool's ship was involved in a collision (even if he was not on the Bridge), he would probably become ineligible for promotion, and possibly reviewed for separation from Service.

Yet a person can come in and completely destroy an important asset for the spiritual well-being for tens or hundreds of people, and there are no consequences.

Or a National Commander can come in, completely revamp the Program, change the uniforms, institute nickel-dime fees on individual outposts like the Pharisees charging taxes at the Temple, tell Commanders who do not like the changes to leave, and see a 70% decrease in outposts, and then go on to be the International Coordinator.

(Just saying)

by **joecool** December 3rd 2022, 1:05 pm

Claymore wrote: Yet a person can come in and completely destroy an important asset for the spiritual well-being for tens or hundreds of people, and there are no consequences.

Reminds me of The Peter Principle. "Everyone rises to their level of incompetency."

Explanation: A boy does a good job at a paper route, then flipping burgers, then mowing lawns, and as an adult starts a successful landscaping business. He then decides to jump into franchising, but it all goes south and he goes bankrupt. He should've been satisfied staying with his original business. Joe Biden is a classic, yet dramatic, example of the Principle. He never should have been promoted to US Senator, let alone Vice-President and now President. He is clearly in over his compromised head. And how about the woke CEO of Disney? He seriously damaged the brand and was recently canned. Yet, he and all the others who have "Petered" out, will get their golden parachute.

Our Senior Pastor and New Guy both continued in ministry, although not with us. I'll leave the consequences up to God. Who knows? Maybe He was teaching us a lesson. Lord knows our hard-earned wisdom has helped us since then.

by **Claymore** December 3rd 2022, 1:08 pm

joecool wrote: I'll leave the consequences up to God. Who knows? Maybe He was teaching us a lesson. Lord knows our hard-earned wisdom has helped us since then.

You are WAY too forgiving.

(And what about that Review that you received for putting a ding in your ship?)

by **Claymore** December 3rd 2022, 1:15 pm

THAT's the difference between an E-8 and an O-4.

Most Enlisted Personnel would MUCH rather go before an O-4 for discipline.

You don't hear a Lieutenant Commander conclude a counseling session with words like, "I'm going to Bust your Chops, you Nasty Little Puke....".

by **ccm2361** December 5th 2022, 9:19 pm

Claymore wrote: So why is it that clergy members can come into a church, totally destroy things, and have no liability?

That is a mighty good question.

It seems like a failed Pastor should have to be bumped back down to Associate Pastor at a successful church or something.
But instead its oh well, have a do over at a new church & hope you donk destroy that one too. Not Working

by **Claymore** December 5th 2022, 10:09 pm

Last night, I spoke with my Pastor (very wise & open-minded guy) about this exact subject.

He kind-of agreed.

Some of the things that he STRONGLY agreed on were:

If a new Pastor, Associate Pastor, Youth Minister, etc. comes in and wants to bump people out of their leadership positions and replace those workers with themselves or "their" people, it is a Big Red Flag. What is likely happening is that they have an agenda, and the current leaders are an impediment to that agenda.

It is a good idea for a church to have a rule in their Constitution requiring that every one or every two years, there be a meeting, and that all members be notified, and that a quorum of eligible voters be required in attendance, and that the purpose of that meeting be to review the Pastor's performance over that period and for all members to make a vote (by ballot) in reference to retaining the Pastor. (Don't accept the argument that a Pastor cannot work under those terms. How many pastors have you seen leave a church, giving you less than a couple of months notice?) And insure that any new applicants understand those terms, prior to coming to the church.

In Milwaukee, we had a church with that in the Constitution. After a year, a new pastor called for the Constitution to be changed and for him to be made pastor for as long as he wished to stay. After the congregation (stupidly) complied he spent the entire building and maintenance budget on ripping out the pews, blacking out windows, turning the church into a theater in the round, and driving out everyone over 35 years of age. All of this was done without the authorization of the Church Counsel. (So what are you going to do about it?)

Have written into the Church Constitution that, if there is a crisis that warrants a "confidence vote" in reference to the Pastor, then a general meeting should be held, and EVERYONE who had been eligible to vote (whether still in attendance at the church, or not) be notified and requested to attend that meeting to vote, and that it be required that a quorum of those eligible, as above, be present at the meeting. This is because some pastors will drive out persons who challenge them, and then claim that they have a majority of support within the church (after the 60% who disagree have left).

by **joecool** December 6th 2022, 9:02 am

Claymore wrote: (So what are you going to do about it?)

I have always felt that the "power of the purse" can provide a check, at least on those actions that require expenditure of funds. For example, the pastor does have the ability to hire anyone he wants. But if the budget doesn't already have a line item providing for it, and there's a red flag on the whole affair..."Okay, Pastor. Go ahead and do it. But the new hire gets paid out of your pocket." Same thing for big non-budgeted projects. Of course, that only works if the Treasurer or a majority of the deacons aren't already in his pocket. If that's the case, the church has even bigger problems.

by **Claymore** December 6th 2022, 1:51 pm

Well, whether he was a signator on the checking account, or not, what do you do when he negotiates unauthorized construction work on the building and there is an unpaid bill due?

by **joecool** December 6th 2022, 3:29 pm

Claymore wrote:Well, whether he was a signator on the checking account, or not, what do you do when he negotiates unauthorized construction work on the building and there is an unpaid bill due?

That's rough. Tell the bill holder that it was unauthorized and he needs to go after the pastor for payment? I'm assuming that he told leadership he's in charge and to pound sand. At that point, it's time to use whatever means necessary to nudge him out.

When I took over as church treasurer, I found out that there was a stamp in the office that was used to sign all the checks. I ended that the same day by destroying the stamp. I look at every check our bookkeeper prepares, and sign it personally. I made other changes, too, and wasn't too popular with the paid staff.

"What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right." - Albert Einstein

by **Claymore** December 6th 2022, 4:56 pm

joecool wrote:

That's rough. Tell the bill holder that it was unauthorized and he needs to go after the pastor for payment?

(Aside from the morality of turning away a contractor who negotiated in good faith...)

The contractor could attach a Mechanic's Lien onto the Church Property, as he had an agreement with a (THE) senior member of the church administration.

And when he summons the church to Small Claims Court, he would win the judgement prior to the Court taking its 10:00 AM Break.

by **joecool** December 7th 2022, 11:01 am

Claymore wrote: And when he summons the church to Small Claims Court, he would win the judgement prior to the Court taking its 10:00 AM Break.

I hope the financial bite was only at the Small Claims level. Although I'm sure the court's dollar amount has risen over the years.

by **Claymore** July 16th 2023, 3:34 pm

OK, I wanted to bring this thread up for revival.

Last night, I was thumbing through the forum, and I started reading, where it began, back in 2013.

There is some OUTSTANDING knowledge and insight by JoeCool, Mark Jones, Chris, Dan Bennett, Strods, Sreidelberger, and Phillip Gross.

And at the risk of playing favorites, I believe that Dan Bennett and Mark Jones had some real wisdom, that was starting to shine forth in about pages 2 and 3.

Good reading.

JOECOOL, if you wanted to do another book, the topic that you started here contains a whole lot of meat.

by **joecool** July 16th 2023, 6:52 pm

Claymore wrote: JOECOOL, if you wanted to do another book, the topic that you started here contains a whole lot of meat.

Reminds me of a conversation we once had about the possibilities of a book that advised pastors/leadership of things not to do. Unfortunately, I think too many people are just determined to learn from their own mistakes, rather than someone else's. That sure burns up a lot of capital, though.

It took me years to get over what "the new guy" did to our children's ministries. I couldn't even say his name out loud, because of the bad taste it would leave in my mouth. And the senior pastor who hired the new guy, and also allowed all the gold dust and feathers to get into our church? Well, he's been an interim pastor at several churches over the years. Last week I was talking to a relatively new pastor up north, and that's who his church's interim was. He had nothing but good to say about him, which is fine. Then he remembered that he used to be my pastor. I'm glad he didn't prompt me to say anything about those days, like, "How did you ever let him go?"

by **Claymore** July 16th 2023, 10:24 pm

It is against our nature to not hold hard feelings about persons who have hurt us or destroyed our work.

I am one person who tends to hold "caution" over "forgiveness", until proven otherwise.

That being said, I try to refrain from holding or expressing bad thoughts about those in my past (but it might not take a lot of scratching to open that wound).

by **joecool** July 26th 2023, 12:27 pm

Claymore wrote: JOECOOL, if you wanted to do another book...

For some months, different ideas have been going through my head. I think they have potential, but I wasn't getting overly excited about them, either. Leaning more into what the Lord wants, I think I have it now.

"Throwing Jesus Under The Bus"

As time goes on, Christians are going to be under increasing pressure to compromise their beliefs, to the point of losing their personal relationship with the Savior. Of course, they won't see it that way, finding any number of convenient justifications to be more "loving" and "tolerant." And these pressures aren't just the ones coming out of the culture war. They also come from the government, the world of finance and even the church.

And time is growing short, as we are another day closer to the Rapture. Scripture is clear on who to put our trust in - and it isn't Joe and it isn't Donald. I think I can get our men's group even more involved with this book than the last. When is our church attendance the highest? Yeah, Easter might be a good target date for passing out copies.

by Kelly Davis August 6th 2023, 10:22 pm

Claymore,
Your statement "That being said, I try to refrain from holding or expressing bad thoughts about those in my past (but it might not take a lot of scratching to open that wound)". causes me to think you might need to use an old fashion laying of hands and praying out loud while doing this it gets the issue taken care of real quick, (just don't let go while the devil is trying to come out of the person you are praying for).

by **Claymore** August 8th 2023, 2:46 pm

Kelly,

As a retired police officer, I have used "laying on of hands" on several occasions to divert persons from their wicked ways...........

by Kelly Davis August 8th 2023, 9:15 pm

Preach it, Brother, Pray it Loud and Proud. and hang on those demons will come out.

by **ccm2361** August 15th 2023, 5:49 pm

Claymore wrote:Kelly,

As a retired police officer, I have used "laying on of hands" on several occasions to divert persons from their wicked ways...........

by **Claymore** August 22nd 2023, 12:50 pm

Another story from my Drug Unit Days...

My partner, Bob, and I both had long hair and beards. In fact, we kind-of looked like the picture of the "Smith Brothers" from the cough drop box (young people do a Google search for a picture).

We would hit drug houses with search warrants. There was generally a mix of males and females on the premises, and 'most-everyone got rounded up & taken Downtown for processing.

When Bob would place his handcuffs on females, prior to transport, he would often say, "Now, just because you're wearing my jewelry doesn't mean that we're Going Steady....".

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