I got a call from the National Office today...

ccm2361 wrote: I know that I am not going to comply with some of those terms, so I don't feel I can just click "I agree". Especially when they put this on the end.

The church recognizes the right of the national Royal Rangers office to revoke program use and charter privileges from any church/outpost deemed to be in violation of national policy.


The church agrees to purchase original/official ministry resources and gear from the national Royal Rangers office via its authorized outlets (RoyalRangers.com; MyHealthyChurch.com; GospelPublishing.com; 1-855-642-2011, customer care; and annual ministry catalog).

The church is willing to work in alignment with the policies and procedures of the Royal Rangers ministry



If they would take the terms off, I would recharter.

This Dove-Tails with Phillip's Veteran's Day Post, but can be understood by everyone.

There are TWO basic kinds of leaders:

One who is a Professional, who holds himself to a higher standard than what he requires of his people, who doesn't seek to make a legacy with his own name, and one who will actually put the welfare of his people before his own.  He has two goals: the Mission and his Men.  His legacy is NOT one of those goals.

The other may be concerned with the Mission, but the Mission is what He (or those whom he answers to) want for their own success.  He demands that you respect him, because he is the Boss, and it is My Way or the HiWay.  He may also be envious of the accomplishments of others and attempt to minimize them, or even discourage those accomplishments (as in  "Royal Rangers is NOT Military").

(I think that we know what's out there.)

Again, Happy Veteran's Day (including those of you who have earned your "veteran" status by attempting to herd, teach, & feed a bunch of 12-year-olds in the woods).

Can't remember where I picked this up back in the 70's, but something that really stuck with me was "Leadership is getting maximum results with minimum friction." Of course, that leaves a lot of room for the details.

We have the latter leadership type in the WH!

AHH!

Dan is good at recognizing patterns.

I see historical patterns here as well...

I went back and started reading this EXCELLENT thread that was started by Chris.

If you read it from the beginning, I think that you will see a lot of truth spoken here.

Also, I had to chirp in, on this conversation with Phillip and Dan:

Phillip Gross wrote:

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Do you feel there is value in chartering?

I do. There is the value of getting a discount on orders from GPH, and there's the value of supporting the ministry. I know I have a different view point from some here, and I'm ok with that, but I don't see anything wrong with using real money to support a real ministry. Regardless of whether you agree with 2.0 or not, you've got to concede that RR does in fact reach boys for Christ. For that, it's worth supporting.

I have t applaud Phillip's integrity expressed in his answer.

It appears that National HQ may be realizing some of the mistakes that they made in Overturning and Polluting the Program. Mark had mentioned earlier that there were some Improvements, but you don't bulldoze the entire house, just because the fireplace doesn't draft when the wind comes from the north.

It seems that the Program is getting better, but it is taking a lot of time to filter the pee out of the pool.

Claymore wrote: It seems that the Program is getting better, but it is taking a lot of time to filter the pee out of the pool.

If they re-purpose all the material from those sandbags they hit me with...

On a more serious note, there's a short article at www.royalrangers.com/news. Scroll down to "History and Future of Chartering." Apparently they are looking to see if there's another way to fund RR.

Joecool, and those of you who have been in the military understand the concept of Unit Leadership. Over the last couple of decades, that understanding has become lost -- not just in Royal Rangers, but in the Nation, as a whole.

A good leader knows that the Unit is not there to serve the Leader, but the Leader is there to serve the Unit. I have seen State Staff, up north (and at National Level), who feel that those of us "out there" are to jump when they say to jump, just because they are "in charge".

I saw State Staff members uniforms full of awards, but gave no assistance (nor even return a letter) in recognizing the leadership service of persons at the Outpost Level.

I read the article that you referred to on "History and Future of Chartering". What I took from it is that Headquarters says that there is nothing wrong with them: only us. Well, many of "us" have been driven out of Rangers, and Headquarters still remains. The problems are just as bad (or even worse), but they drove all of the troublemakers "off of the Bus" years ago. So what remains????

We have a new National "Coordinator". I wish him the best. He has a tire with an innertube with a lot of poor patches on it.

But the first thing that an effective Leader coming out of a failed situation should say to his staff and subordinate leaders is, "OK. Things got screwed up. Headquarters has to bear responsibility. Work with us. How to you think we can fix it?".

I have heard bits & pieces, but not the entire Sonata.

Claymore wrote: We have a new National "Coordinator".  I wish him the best.  He has a tire with an innertube with a lot of poor patches on it. But the first thing that an effective Leader coming out of a failed situation should say to his staff and subordinate leaders is, "OK.  Things got screwed up.  Headquarters has to bear responsibility.  Work with us.  How to you think we can fix it?". I have heard bits & pieces, but not the entire Sonata.

Excellent analysis. But I wonder if the really big boys in Springfield are the only ones allowed to put coins in the jukebox, and our RR national staff has to dance to their tune. What if they know there's a whole dance floor out there, but they're not allowed to use most of it?

joecool wrote:

Claymore wrote: We have a new National "Coordinator".  I wish him the best.  He has a tire with an innertube with a lot of poor patches on it. But the first thing that an effective Leader coming out of a failed situation should say to his staff and subordinate leaders is, "OK.  Things got screwed up.  Headquarters has to bear responsibility.  Work with us.  How to you think we can fix it?". I have heard bits & pieces, but not the entire Sonata.

Excellent analysis. But I wonder if the really big boys in Springfield are the only ones allowed to put coins in the jukebox, and our RR national staff has to dance to their tune. What if they know there's a whole dance floor out there, but they're not allowed to use most of it?  

Well, I'm going to "Think Clean Thoughts" here.

Without trying to slander his name, Doug Marsh was not MENTALLY an American. He was raised in South America by Missionary Parents. He was exposed to Non-American Culture and Ideas. "American Exceptionalism" tends to be abhorred by individuals from those areas - especially intellectuals.

I think that Dough looked good on paper. He had all of the boxes checked. But being a 4th Generation Pentecostal and a Second Generation Pastor does not necessarily make you a good administrator. In fact, my personal experience is that most of the "train wreck Pastors" that I have seen in Church Leadership have exactly that kind of background. "Too Holy to Fail."

There is no way that Johnnie Barnes would have stood for 20% of the changes that were implemented under the Marsh Administration.

This is not an attack on Doug, personally. Just his "lack of fit" in a position of World-Wide Power and Responsibility. The fault lies in those who appointed him.

I can't remember if Doug Marsh was double-hatted, keeping International RR, while running the USA. But I do recall thinking that he was going back to his strong suit. I hadn't thought about him potentially having a different cultural mindset.

Makes sense, though. I know a missionary that serves in Ireland. Every time they itinerate in the States, the girls always say, "We want to go home." I know another missionary family in Japan, whose 7 kids (the oldest is 19) have never been to America. It may be best for them to stay over there.

Guys I am for chartering. I am for Church, Country and God. I am part of a successful outpost of 20 boys and 4 leaders. We are on the move towards being a Johnnie Barnes type of Outpost and I am very happy with that. I am happy to say we are teaching one of the leadership merits so the boys can get into FCF and I just purchased a 3000.00 dollar FCF tent so we would have a roof over our heads. NOW having said all that if you com eand looked at our outpost you would find all kinds of things to pick apart but if you stepped back and looked again holding to premiss I want to look for the good in this. You would smile and say YES! That's Royal Rangers that I loved being a part of. Just want to encourage each of us myself included. To give and to serve. Do your best as unto the Lord and let HIM build it. He is working here 18 miles from GPH. Still loads of good in the program. Pick that part up and go for it.

Mark Jones
p.s. I answer stuff from our District folk on a daily bases. I make it a point to help out at every turn that I can. YET it's not perfect and I am not perfect but it's pretty good. With God's help I will do my Best! I believe in that!

Mark,

I think that Chris's original post in this Thread was that the Chartering Page was requiring him to make a pledge that he could/would not be able to keep.  He wasn't willing to click that box and lie, just so that he could send $60.00 or $70.00 to National.

I just looked at the requirements for chartering, and it still reads:

"The church agrees to purchase original/official ministry resources and materials from the national Royal Rangers office via its authorized outlets at My Healthy Church."

So if an outpost tries to save money by purchasing used Ranger Uniforms from kids who have outgrown them or from ebay, then they are in violation of this Pledge.  

I know that this is verbiage left from the last administration, but it is still unreasonable.

When I went to NTC, we were required to make our own Bolo Ties, rather than to wear the ones purchased from GPH.  Technically, I think that THAT could be a violation of the agreement, since the "Resources" (Bolo Ties) were available through GPH.

Does anyone here have a pair of Khakis with the label "Dickies", rather than "Gospel Publishing House"?

Claymore wrote: Does anyone here have a pair of Khakis with the label "Dickies", rather than "Gospel Publishing House"?

A couple of outposts ago, when I lived close to several military bases, I used to frequent their thrift stores every couple of months. I could buy perfectly good used khakis for a couple of bucks...for men or boys. I was being a good steward, period.

As someone who knows how rules and laws can be interpreted in the widest possible way, I am sure that you can see how Headquarters could state that such "out of Organization" purchases could be a violation of the required Charter Agreement.

What we have is a bunch of people who do not wisely know how to use Power, attempting to enforce their own whims.

(I expect, that's another reason that they attempted to purge anyone with Military Experience out of the Organization. We know how follow rules, but we also demand that the Higher-Ups also follow the rules. Kind-of like the current Majority in the House of Representatives.)

Well last night I enjoyed the So. MO District Royal Ranger Christmas party several of the National Staff were there with their spouses.  First name bases I know their kids they know mine.  I see them many times a year and folks you won't find nicer folks that are dedicated to Royal Ranger Ministry.  

The verbage that comes in to play is so far removed from this office that it would shock you.  The legal council of the AG over see's every page.  Every written word that comes out of their office.  If they make a change it has to process through various departments of legal before it is approved for publish.

Headquarters now enforces a GAG order on most of the folks I know that works there.    

Now having said that. Is it wrong to have a legal council that is trying to put out every fire across the U.S.  They seriously are trying to do that. That trickles down to our Districts as well and then trickles on down to the church and local outpost.   I don't see every legal law suit brought up against the AG and in reality few would.  Yet they are in constant litigation over all kinds of things.  If my world consisted of that I would look at things differently.  However my world doesn't have that view.  I see 600 plus outings over the past 30 years with few issues so that is not high on my list.  Yet it just takes one to ring a bell and pretty soon all eyes are looking at it.  Yes we need common sense and good practices in our Ranger Ministry.

With Rangers having various levels of involvement for a church from meeting on a Wed night having a bible study with boys and girls and playing some games.  To a full blown Uniformed outpost that is doing the whole program.  There are many levels in between.   They could care less what you wear say or do as long as it's Biblical and it meets your Pastors approval.  They have approved making your own "Stuff" as you see fit.  You just can't recreate their stuff and sell it.  

We modified our Ranger Derbies rules to say "Any GPH approved kit"  we dropped the details as it kept changing.  

I am learning as I grow a bit older to not get hung up on the fine print as it's there to cover their rear end if the need arises  My rear end is covered by my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.  In Him will I trust.  This man made rules and stuff is carnal and very unfulfilling.  All these fence laws about everything is man serving and I feel God doesn't like it.   No faith in that stuff.  Of course this is my opinion only.  I buy few things from GPH and I am part of a RR outpost that is thriving.  We charter.  We have our own outpost tshirt.  We attend Pow Wow, Ranger Derbies, RK Day Camps, Section Events and Div Events and even host a few events in our Church as well as doing backpacking, floats, fishing and several other things each year.   Having said all that.  Don't get hung up on that stuff.  devil is there trying to trip us up at every step..side step that thing and see Boys and Girls and Folk saved and sanctified for Jesus Christ.  

If I stopped at every trick of the devil I would never get anywhere.  Instead I just grin at it shake my head and look to Jesus and carry on.  devil will never stop and even if he pulled back on bothering  me I would figure I am not doing much for the kingdown of God.  

Eternity in hell is where these people are heading unless we work every day to keep that from happening.  I am going to do my part.

Mark Jones wrote: If I stopped at every trick of the devil I would never get anywhere.  Instead I just grin at it shake my head and look to Jesus and carry on.  

I imagine as many times as you've said it and done it over the years, the "grin" lines are probably permanent. Not a bad thing, though. Lot of wisdom in your post, Mark.

Claymore wrote:Mark,

I think that Chris's original post in this Thread was that the Chartering Page was requiring him to make a pledge that he could/would not be able to keep.  He wasn't willing to click that box and lie,

Yes that is exactly it. In years previous, if you wanted to charter, you signed up on the website & paid your money & that was it. But this time (2013) I got to the end of the chartering & up pops this Pledge page where you had to check that agreed with each item on a list. Most of them were doctrinal stuff which is fine; but there were a few I could not check "I Agree" because I knew darn well I did not agree.

The church is willing to work in alignment with the policies and procedures of the Royal Rangers ministry and use copyright materials and trademarks according to our guidelines.

My Translation:  you must run the program EXACTLY as written & follow ALL policies. At that time I was not running our Outpost EXACTLY as written.  I was running a coed outpost & they knew it. ("They" being the National staff, through my posts on the old Rangerforums which had a number of highly placed RR people as members)
   

  The church will serve in harmony with other fellowships using Royal Rangers and endeavor in word and deed to make "Royal Rangers the premier church ministry for next generation men in America, period!"

My Translation:  You shall not say anything negative about Royal Rangers National Office on the internet  They knew darn well I was saying negative things about many of the Marsh era changes

  The church agrees to purchase original/official ministry resources and gear from the national Royal Rangers office via its authorized outlets
My Translation:  You shall not purchase any non official items for RR
I was ordering my own medals from another company at a fraction of the cost of official RR medals ($1.75 compared to $16.00 for the official ones)
I was wearing a German RR neckerchief with my uniform
I was wearing a Dickies brand Khaki uniform
and so on
AND they knew it
 
 The church recognizes the right of the national Royal Rangers office to revoke program use and charter privileges from any church/outpost deemed to be in violation of national policy.

My Translation:  We can kick you out if you don't toe the line

Since certain National Staff members (via Rangerforums) KNEW I was committing the above mentioned violations, they had me in a trap if I checked those boxes.

That was my beef with it at the time. It wasn't that I was against Chartering. Not at all. I chartered every year up till that year, when I had to say no.

If the national office had left well enough alone, I would have kept on chartering. But this pledge was, in my opinion, a direct challenge to "rebellious" Commanders.

Chris your welcome to read and interrupt what you will. I didn't read any of that into it. Yet keep in mind people are different and in that some will walk right on past that and have a great time Reaching, Teaching and Keeping Boys and Girls for Christ as I do that now in part and partial. Some will stop and ring the bell and say "Go no Farther". I will say your outpost with the boys and girls working on merits together is being done right here in Springfield by 2 churches I know of. One the National Director attends. NOW it's a hybrid but they are doing it. Main thing is they are meeting the 5 things that any level of RR or Ministry would hope to achieve. Reaching, Teaching and Keeping folk for Christ. It really is boiling down to that. Maybe a few different words here and there but that is what it works down to. Ways, means and methods...not so important as once thought.

You know I know what we all have discussed over the many years and how mistakes were made on leaderships part. Yet they are human and I will allow them GRACE on mistakes. I sure want folk to give me GRACE on mine. Few people will admit their mistakes but eventually they agree it was a wrong move. Today's Royal Ranger Leadership wants Christian Royal Ranger success. No matter how you package it. Really no matter if it looks like RR or not. That old failed mindset has changed. We need look at ourselves as well and do the best we can for Jesus.

Mark's and Chris's posts today are EXACTLY ON THE MARK.

Even though they are both opposite, they are both true.

If National HQ has Attorneys dictating the Program, then they are snared in a Carnal Net. I understand that, in today's age, a large organization must have lawyers advising you to not do something STUPID, but that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to dictate the Program.

It is wrong for an organization that expresses Honesty and Christian Values to put someone like Chris into a situation where he must check a "pledge box" that he cannot completely comply with (even if HQ is giving "the wink" and saying that they understand that you might not comply).

Mark, your heart is where Royal Rangers was meant to be. If the folks at National Staff feel the same way, then that is also how the Program was meant to be run, and God Bless them.

But Chris is absolutely correct in his interpretation of the "I Agree" box.

This may be an absurd comparison, but what if an organization said, "Just take this 666 tattoo. It doesn't mean anything. Just don't make waves." Again, the comparison is extreme, but it appears that Chris wants to live his life as a "Holiness" Christian, and doesn't feel comfortable signing a pledge that he feels he cannot 100% keep.

Mark, you say that National Staff is Reasonable and Good Hearted. You relayed that they don't mind wearing Dickies Khakis or making your own Bolos, but the Pledge Box says the opposite. If they wanted to move that language to some "Guidelines" Page in Rangers, folks like Chris could probably live with that, knowing that he may be deviating, a bit. That would still give National HQ coverage if someone is acting in an unauthorized fashion, but not requiring him to take an Oath to God and Springfield.

Again, both Mark and Chris are correct.

But if I have to choose between Chris's "Holiness" and Springfield's "Lawyers", then I must choose...……...

And one more thing...……..

Mark, you had said that the folks at National HQ know that you are a bit of a Mustang by participating in this Forum.  You are the absolute BEST Ambassador that Springfield could have, when some of their actions and verbiage may chafe a few of us out here in the Field.

Policies posted on the Web are only words, and we have to interpret their intentions.  If their intentions are sometimes misunderstood, you do a good job of helping to put the "intent" out to us that HQ can/will not.

The troops at Ground Level need leadership that will talk WITH us: not AT us.

Thanks Guys! Our hearts are in the right place. I know that. Keep on looking up. It will work out.

Mark Jones

ccm2361 wrote:I was driving along in my work truck this morning & the phone rings. ……….

2 minutes later the phone rings again. "Hi this is Terry from Royal Rangers again, why aren't you going to re-charter?"

So I told her "I went to recharter online, but because of the new terms page that was added to the process, I decided not to."

She was incredulous.." so your not going to recharter because of a page on a website???!"  

I could tell right there that she had no idea what I was talking about & was probably not connected to Rangers. probably a temp or outside polling firm. ………………………..

Not to beat a (oops, too late), but let's use a CONSTRUCTIVE Analysis of this call.

Let's take Chris on his Knowledge, Experience, and Instincts that this young lady had little-to-no idea about the Administration of the Program or recent history of Rangers, she was placed in a very unfair situation, as HQ obviously knew that you hadn't re-chartered, and so there must be a reason why.

She obviously did not have the authority to reconcile or resolve the impediment to your re-chartering. I would say that someone above attempted to delegate HIS job to someone with little knowledge and no authority.

There aren't THAT many outposts left, that a Commander (oops "Coordinator") or member of Staff from District or National could not have made that call. He may have had the authority to reconcile the problem -- or at least the knowledge to pass it on to someone that could.

Now, I will admit that I wouldn't want to have to make those calls, because I may not hear what I WANT to hear.

SOMEONE is taking these New-Age Whiz-Bang marketing ideas and attempting to use them on old mules who have seen too many campaigns. You generally do not get to be an outpost Senior Commander (oops, Coordinator) as soon as you fall off the Turnip Truck.

(There, now wasn't that Constructive?)

Claymore wrote: SOMEONE is taking these New-Age Whiz-Bang marketing ideas and attempting to use them on old mules who have seen too many campaigns.  You generally do not get to be an outpost Senior Commander (oops, Coordinator) as soon as you fall off the Turnip Truck. (There, now wasn't that Constructive?)

Mules don't get to be old by doing EVERYTHING the mule-driver tells him. Case in point: Balaam and his donkey in the 22nd chapter of Numbers. The donkey could see the dangers that lay in the ordered path, but Balaam was oblivious and repeatedly punished the poor beast until it spoke up. Sometimes, ya gotta listen to the donkey if you want to get to your destination.



Now, generally speaking, I don't think you get to be a Springfield mule unless you've fought in a lot of campaigns with distinction. They've fought the good fight in their region and want to have similar success on the national battlefield. But I wonder if Springfield ends up beating the life out of them?