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AR-15 Hunting

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 2:53 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Aren't the whisper .300 and .300 AAC Blackout the $70 bucks for a box of 20 rounds you mentioned?
Yeah, that's NOT what you want for a basic gun.

If it costs $2.00 to $4.00 every time that you pull the trigger, most folks won't have the money for much practice.

Even my 6.8 SPC is expensive ($23.00 to $42.00 per box). So I do most of my practice with on a 5.56mm platform, and just shoot a box or two of 6.8 per year to insure that the optics are still sighted in.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 24th 2013, 5:18 pm

I was hoping it was the same specs but lady on the phone at store said I can add it after purchase. I figure that was probably the decals you mentioned before.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 6:49 pm

The gun that you showed the link to is a nice-looking piece.

However, I prefer the longer, "mid-length" gas system, if possible. I have had problems with timing and excessive gas pressure with "shorty" gas systems.

Since the gun has a 16" barrel, why have a gas system that is set up for a 10 to 12" barrel?

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 7:03 pm

Upon closer look at the site, I see that 'most-all of their 5.56 M&P's have the "shorty" gas systems, except for those with the full 20" barrel.

If you are going to use iron sights, the 20" barrel has a definite advantage.

If you are going to use optics, or will be shooting at shorter,defensive distances, then the added length is less necessary.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 24th 2013, 7:42 pm

Do AR's have Beano for their excessive gas pressures... LOL 

Describe what happens when you have excessive gas pressure with a 16" barrel? Will it affect rapid fire?


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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 7:53 pm

18:57:45
RRCmdrBennett wrote:Do AR's have Beano for their excessive gas pressures...  LOL


"At Cheez-It, we only select MATURE Cheese."

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 24th 2013, 8:22 pm

I love that commercial.

Can you describe what happens in that situation you mentioned?

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 9:09 pm

The common term in the functioning of an AR-15 is "timing", but the more accurate term is "gas pressure curve".

You have to visualize this:

When the bullet is being pushed by the gas, there is pressure in the barrel.  Because the AR-15 System is "direct gas impingement" against the bolt, as soon as the gas  pressure goes through the gas tube and gets to the bolt, the bolt starts to go back.

With the original M-16, with a 20" barrel, the gas tube was long enough that, by the time that the gas pressure got to the bolt, the bullet was pretty-much out the end of the barrel, and the pressure in the barrel was getting back down when the bolt started to retract.

During firing, the brass case had expanded in the chamber, helping to form a seal, and to keep the pressure against the bolt-face down (that's why brass is the best shell-case).

However, with a short gas tube, the bullet has a much longer way to get out the end of the barrel and allow the gas pressure to drop.  If the gas pressure in the barrel is still high at the time that the bolt attempts to pull the shell case out, the case may still be expanded against the chamber wall, causing Fail-to-Extract, Fail-to-Eject, or tearing off the rim of the shell case.

There have been different ways of dealing with this.  One is to have a gas tube that wraps around the barrel, thus giving a longer "dwell time".  A partial cure may be to use a heavier buffer.  I have a Car-15 that I put a "Tuneable Gas System" on.  It has an Alen Screw that I turn down to close off a percentage of the gas going to the bolt.  The other is to have the gas port milled so meticulously close that the amount of gas going into the gas tube is "just right".

That's why it took so long to make the successful M-4 rifle system from the M-16.  We had CAR-15's (XM177-E2) back during Viet Nam, but they were infamous for having extraction/jamming problems, because of the short distance between the Gas Port and the Bolt.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 24th 2013, 10:31 pm

Some searching led me to the side effect possibly being FTE which you described.

Is the gas tube the part your left hand grasps when firing the AR? Maybe a dumb question but I'm an AR newbie.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 10:46 pm

You're in the right area.

What you are describing is the Handguard or Forearm Assembly.

The Gas Tube is a Stainless Steel Tube running on top of the barrel inside of the Handguard Assembly.

So when you see an M-4 with short handguards and assume that it has a short Gas Tube, you are pretty-much correct.

The actual way to tell, is to look for the GAS BLOCK Assembly.  It will be a little rectangular block on top of the barrel between 12 and 16 inches from the receiver.

On an AR-15/M-4 with the fixed front sight, the Gas Block is milled as part of the front sight ramp.

So generally, where your Front Sight is located, that's where your Gas Block (or the beginning of the Gas Tube) is at.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 24th 2013, 11:02 pm

Did a google search on "ar gas tube" came up with this video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=npNtQEhdt6E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnpNtQEhdt6E which gave me a visual of how to install a full length gas tube. AR's seem a little intimidating but I'm learning why they are so popular.

Why do they not install a full length gas tube to begin with?  

Is a shorter gas tube definitely goin to be a problem or potential issue?

Is it costly to do this modification to an AR?

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 11:13 pm

The overly simple answer for civilian rifles is that "they look cool".  When the Military had CAR-15 rifles, the manufacturers had to make the barrel at least 16" to be legal.  Otherwise, they used the same handguards & furniture as the carbine.

Same with the M-4.

You can buy a legal short-barreled carbine with the full-length gas system.  It is commonly called the "Dissipator".  The worst thing about it is that it looks awkward, with full-length handguards and a stubby little barrel sticking out.

So in my opinion, a reasonable compramise is the "mid-length gas system". It doesn't look awkward, it is longer than an M-4 System, but is not quite as long as an M-16. I just feel that the extra length takes you a bit closer to reliability.

But that's just me.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 11:32 pm

Good job in doing your research, Dan.

The setup that he has is, essentially, a Dissipator.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 24th 2013, 11:39 pm

The only parts to buy are the mid or full sized gas tube and matching forearm assembly? What's the price on those?

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fire FCF Frontiersman 9/91 fire
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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 24th 2013, 11:51 pm

Nope.  You would have to purchase an entire new barrel with front sight (or gas block), handguards, & mid-length gas tube.

You cannot use your existing barrel, because the hole for the gas port is drilled in the wrong place, and the sight/gas block is in the wrong place.

Easiest fix is to purchase a mid-length upper on Gunbroker ($350.00 to $700.00).

Then you just pull two pins, drop it onto your existing lower receiver, and push the pins in.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 25th 2013, 12:02 am

Will any AR mid length upper receiver do?

Are all the uppers the same?

Does an upper need an FFL?

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 25th 2013, 12:24 am

No FFL Needed - only for a new lower (the part with the serial number).

Essentially all upper receivers will interchange (except AR-10's will not go onto an AR-15).  Another exception is that during the Klinton Gun Ban, Colt made some lower receivers with off-set pins, so that you couldn't put uppers with "evil" bayonet lugs on Ban-Era lowers (but they are all out of date, now).

So, you can purchase a quality AR-15/M-4 in 5.56 and upgrade it each year by buying a mid-length upper, a 6.8mm upper, a 7.62x39 upper, a .300 Blackout upper, etc.

They should all go onto your lower (just be advised that if you switch calibers, you need COMPLETE uppers with their own bolts, because the bolt heads will be different sizes.

That's why we call the AR-15 the "Barbie Doll of Rifles". Just get one Lower Receiver, and dress her up any way that you want her, and it's easy to switch between Outfits.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 25th 2013, 12:33 am

I've read that the price of uppers is about as much as new AR in that other caliber you want. Is that true or do you save $ over buying a new rig.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by Claymore on August 25th 2013, 12:43 am

It depends.

Dollar-for dollar, you're going to get the most with a "Production Gun": the gun that Smith & Wesson or Bushmaster or Stag Arms makes thousands of and sells them to all dealers, including Wal-Mart. So buying a new upper receiver in a "Production" setup would be counter-productive.

But if you want something "special" like a 6.8 SPC with a Mid-Length Gas System, a free-floated barrel with Quad-Rails, and a Flip-Down Front Sight, you will pay $800.00 for the upper or $1,300.00 for the complete gun.

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Re: AR-15 Hunting

Post by RRCmdrBennett on August 25th 2013, 8:10 am

Sort of reminds me of how you can buy a production model pc or build one yourself.

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"Be Ready, It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark."

fire FCF Frontiersman 9/91 fire
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