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Gold Dust and Feathers

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Claymore on September 15th 2014, 10:30 am

We've chased this rabbit a little before, but the Anglican/Episcopal Church places "Enlightenment" (Man's Knowledge, believed to be from the Holy Spirit) above "Scripture" in importance of developing Doctrine. I believe THAT is why so much of their doctrine seems to be going out into Left Field.

But Saint Paul said that Gifts from the Holy Spirit can be faked. So whatever "Enlightenment" people say has been received from the Holy Spirit must agree with (or be confirmed by) the Bible.


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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 15th 2014, 2:45 pm

Claymore wrote:"Enlightenment above Scripture"

The Bethel Church pastor says they place "spiritual experiences over Scripture." Recipe for disaster: 2 cups of man's desire and two tablespoons of man's motivation, spoon out the Holy Spirit, whisk vigorously, and bake in Hell (for eternity).

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Claymore on September 15th 2014, 6:21 pm

joecool wrote:
The Bethel Church pastor says they place "spiritual experiences over Scripture."

Well, there's fertile ground to grow a "Bobbleheaded Cult of Whirling Dervishes".

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 16th 2014, 9:01 am

joecool wrote: The elders are finally ready for an intervention. Finally. Stay tuned.

Word is, he blew off their concerns as the usual complaints from the usual crowd. This isn't going well. Crying or Very sad

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by ccm2361 on September 16th 2014, 9:37 am

not good.
Sounds like someone who needs to go & is going to fight leaving all the way

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 16th 2014, 2:28 pm

I'm going to wait on the Lord...for 20 days. Then my flesh will have to say/do something. Lord, please talk to certain people before then.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Mark Jones on September 16th 2014, 5:32 pm

I try and keep the Pastors at arms length. GRIN!

My experience in the past has not all been good.

At the age of 18 I was kicked out of Jehovah's Witnesses for smoking cigs ..it was two of the elders sons that got me started... I didn't rat them out.
I have been shunned by JW for 37 years. They told me I would commit suicde or end up in a mental institution. Nope Jesus had plans for my life.

At the age of 33 became a Christian. Learned that Pastors are human.

Hand delivered a 4 page typed letter on why NTC was a major contributor to a failed LTC "worse campout I ever been on". Ken Hunt said..oh so your the one that wrote the letter.... I just grinned at him.

They changed NTC from humiliation tactics a few years after that.

Had a new Sr. Pastor come in to our Church. Promised the world and I have never been lied to so much by a Christian in my life. I ended up after 3 months resigning my SR. Commander position. Told him he was the wolf at the door. Grin. He was going to kill the Flag ship RR program in Springfield. He did and it never has been even a 1/4 of the way to 120 men and boy program it was when God was leading.

Had a Pastor at my current church give us a scathing on a van cleanup...we handwashed the van washed it hosed it out swept it and cleaned the windows about 5 of us..and it had a little brown dust that collected on the rug when it dried out. I chastised him pretty good. Told him he should have just cleaned it up himself..pull the rug out and give it a shake. He apologized after the fact.

I could go on and on and on. Living and working here in Springfield in and out of Business's and Homes for the past 35 years has given me more tales than I can remember.

We all have a sin nature. If we go to pandering to self that sin nature revives and we go down a path of a leason to be learned. I struggle like everyone else does but the nuts and bolts of it is. Putting one's faith in Jesus not only for Salvation but for a more than overcoming life as well. He paid for it. We might as well live in his plan.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Mark Jones on September 16th 2014, 5:37 pm

When I mess up bad. I can just imagine the Father and Jesus having a conversation something like this...
Did you just see what Mark did? Jesus putting him hand on his forhead and looking down a bit and saying..well he has been doing better at that but he sure messed up on it this time. The Father looking on and saying is his faith in what you did at the CROSS? Jesus saying yes he is a believer on his way to perfection. They smile at one another and God sends me the Holy Spirit with some needed help.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Mark Jones on September 16th 2014, 5:38 pm

That is the Gospel. I am thankful for it.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 16th 2014, 6:29 pm

Having a short-notice dinner with a well-respected member of the church tonight. During Sunday's elder/pastor meeting, his name was leaked as the one who made their meeting necessary. The following day, he was asked to turn in his master key to the church. Coincidence?

Guys, I'm getting weary. I'm tired of being the fix-it guy for a struggling church and a struggling school. My wife and I have pretty much decided to retire from all our ministries and obligations at the end of the school year, and take some time off. Not quite sure what the Lord thinks about that.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Claymore on September 16th 2014, 7:02 pm

I have stated before that I really see a lot of GOOD things about the Self-Autonomy of A/G Churches.

But:

An intrinsic weakness of the system of having members vote to sustain the Pastor is that, if you have a Pastor making decisions that alienates enough members, and they get fed up & eventually leave, then all of the "rational" folks are gone, and the only ones left to vote in membership meetings are those left who back the pastor.

In my opinion, the most decisive way to overcome this weakness is to use the tactics employed by First Officer Fletcher Christian of the Royal Navy.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 16th 2014, 7:11 pm

Bligh on the Bounty and Bligh in the lifeboat seem to be two entirely different people. If you've never read the story about what happened after the mutiny, treat yourself. A fantastic story of self-sacrifice and survival. The captain saw the loyal crewmen through to safety. On the other hand, Fletcher's crew was killed off by the disgruntled natives. Too complicated for me to draw parallels. My head hurts right now.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Claymore on September 16th 2014, 7:28 pm

Then the Moral of the Story is:

Some Captains need to be cast off in a Lifeboat to achieve their Better Potential.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 16th 2014, 7:37 pm

Ding, ding, ding! Post of the month. cheers

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Claymore on September 17th 2014, 11:41 am

I believe that it was the:

Royal Navy Qualitative Management System 1.0

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Mark Jones on September 21st 2014, 6:25 pm

joecool wrote:Ding, ding, ding! Post of the month. cheers


Post of the year would get my vote. The Rick Warrenites need to get in that boat and sail off into lu lu land. Had my fill of man foo foo. I am looking for God's man with God's plan the bible being preached and followed.

Why is it that we never learn. As soon as someone publishes a new book half of our church goes chasing after the latest fads and we loose all credibility.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 21st 2014, 8:04 pm

Connected with a previous associate pastor. He shares some of my "gold dust" concerns, but allows that Bethel is generally doing great things. I looked into another previous associate pastor, who was into the gold dust thing at our church. He now leads another one in the state, and sure enough, their website sets off all my warning bells.

Latter day rain, new apostolic age, third wave, signs and wonders...it's all the same thing. Meeting the new guy in a couple of days, then its off to see our third elder. Hope he wasn't sucked down the rabbit hole like the others.

Wisdom this weekend from someone whom I consider my mentor. "Be like David. Don't actively seek to oust the king (pastor). Pray for God to take action in His time." Yeah, I'd much rather see our pastor leave when our church is on the upswing. But patience is hard.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by RRCmdrBennett on September 22nd 2014, 2:56 pm

How far do we go in supporting organizations that do some good works if there are doctrinal issues?

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Mark Jones on September 22nd 2014, 5:11 pm

God uses flawed people ALL the time with one exception. Jesus.

Same as political parties. Sometimes we have to pick the best and ignore the bad. Ok..ALL the time. gRIN!

I never had a perfect Ranger Commander. Never had a perfect Computer. Never typed a perfect email... in all those things.. still got some good out of it.

Churches and Pastors need to held doctorinely to a hi standard. Personally they will fail. Yet they need to teach and preach right on the Word.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by Mark Jones on September 22nd 2014, 5:15 pm

The older I get that more forgiving I am. I think it's because I know it's not possible with out God's help to live a more than abundant life. Sadly we have a whole lot of folk that are winging it themselves and falling all around the place. The strength and power is not in us and our methods it's in God and his Son's atonement at the Cross we then have Holy Ghost supernatural power helping us with out us doing it. It's a simple thing to say but most don't grasp it...

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by RRCmdrBennett on September 22nd 2014, 7:30 pm

Agreed

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on September 27th 2014, 8:16 pm

Sent a 4-page document to my elders last night. It contains a history of Bethel Church's movement and it's influence on our church. Researching some of the guests who were brought in over the years, I found lots of connections to Bethel and their kind. Time to bring it all into the open and deal with it. Waiting for their reaction/response.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by ccm2361 on September 29th 2014, 5:44 pm

I will be praying for you & your church Joe

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on October 7th 2014, 1:11 am

The elders and I came up with a first step, which the pastor was okay with. Not fast enough, though. This weekend we lost two former deacons and their families. Huge hit. Where's the pastor? Off doing the love of his life, district duties.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

Post by joecool on August 28th 2015, 3:34 pm

The preceding comments occurred in the fall of last year. After a few months of discussions, the pastor and elders decided upon an "apology" service. They apologized for not dealing with problems, not listening to people's concerns, and a general air of spiritual superiority. But not a word about the Bethel Church controversy. I was hopeful that we were going to start a climb out of the hole at that point. But as I've mentioned a couple of times since then, that didn't happen. We've continued to nose dive in every area. Now I know why.

The fall's list of small groups was included in last Sunday's bulletin. One group is using a book written by Bill Johnson, the gold dust/feathers/and worse guy. It will be taught by an elder's wife and was approved by the pastor's wife, both of whom have kids who are deeply into the author's church. After a couple days' reflection and prayer, I was about to contact the pastor, but someone beat me to the punch. There's a meeting scheduled next week. There's no good ending to this, no matter which way it goes. People will be leaving.

All this crap is rearing it's ugly head again, because it was never run off. Time to deal with it once and for all.

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Re: Gold Dust and Feathers

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