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Can they not see?

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Can they not see?

Post by Phillip Gross on April 10th 2014, 4:06 pm

Didn't want to hijack Mark's topic, so here goes...

Mark Jones wrote:

When Richard Marriott first took over as National Commander in 2000 our Commanders Conferences were huge.  With the changes these past 14 years we might have a hundred there.  I am hoping for 500 there.  "It could happen"
Mark Jones

We've had analogies of airplanes, discussions about what's happening, discussions about things were, and discussions about what we think would fix it. We've discussed charter numbers and now this example of how things are dwindling.

So can they not see these things too? And it's not that the culture doesn't want a scouting program anymore. That talk about it not being the 60s and 70s anymore, and that's the reason that we needed to "reinvent" ourselves is a cop out! If there wasn't a demand for a good scouting program then they wouldn't have just created "Trail Life" and "American Heritage Girls".

My boys are playing baseball again this spring. Some boys pitch better than others, and of course they get worn down as they pitch too. There comes a point after the pitcher keeps walking in runs that the coach has to approach the mound. Sometimes the talk helps the pitcher pull it together, dig deep, and finish the game strong. More times than not, it's time to change the pitcher....

So a few questions. 1) Who's the coach? 2) Do they see what's happening 3) Do you think they'll pull the pitcher before we lose the game?

And yes, I know we should all run our outposts as well as we can, but just like in baseball, no matter how well the fielders play, the pitcher can lose the game quickly for everyone.
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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Claymore on April 10th 2014, 4:59 pm

I am far-far removed from Headquarters, but I see the "Coach" as A/G Church HQ in Springfield.  

Do they see what's happening?  Maybe, but I think that it is all getting explained away, "It's Technology's Fault.  These are just Growing Pains.  We're still fixing it."

Some of this CAN be blamed on Technology.  Those of us over 50 years old remember going into Toy Stores (and even Wal-Mart) and seeing rows & rows of Model Cars and Model Airplanes.  Now you are hard-pressed to find them, because they are not exciting entertainment.

But that DOES NOT explain why so many-many leaders have thrown up their hands and left the Program.  And their reason is always the same: The Administration that uses what doesn't work and will not listen to those on the Ground.  It is like a Preacher who is so "Holy" that he believes that every thought that comes into his head is from the Holy Spirit.  If you disagree with him, you are "Challenging the Sovereignty of God" (I have actually heard that from a "Holiness Preacher").

I think that it's kind-of like Obamacare.  If it's not working, it is not because it's a Bad Product.  It is because the people on Ground-Level aren't smart enough to see how great it is.  And we need MORE to make it work.  It's kind-of like Raising Taxes to achieve Prosperity.

Will they Pull the Pitcher?  I don't know.  Sometimes you REALLY have to Hit Bottom in order to realize that you're doing it wrong.  R/R is dwindling, but it's not in the I.C.U. Ward, yet.  Mark says that Dough Marsh is a Nice Guy and that he Really Works Hard.  If he is well-liked by those at HQ, it would make it more difficult to pull the job from him.

The most insecure Preachers and Leaders that I have seen have followed Successful, Loved Leaders.  They feel that they must achieve higher than their predecessor, but they must also do away with any Programs and Materials from the Previous Administrations and replace them all with "NEW" programs that have the current Leader's name all over them.  (Our former Insecure Preacher refused to allow our church to have a Lunch honoring the Previous Pastor when he returned for a visit.)

And anyONE or anyTHING that does not conform must be Purged from the System.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by joecool on April 10th 2014, 6:14 pm

I've been on my church's leadership team for five years, and I'll be termed out in Feb. I feel that as a deacon, my highest responsibility has been to serve, and I do that by protecting the body. For years, I have been the voice in the wilderness, bringing attention to various unsafe/unwise practices and procedures. Up until the last six months, the rest of leadership had always agreed, sometimes reluctantly, but changes were made. And sometimes they wanted to go in directions that screamed DON'T! to me. They always backed off. I don't want it to sound like it's been "my way, or else," it's just that I have seen no wisdom in some of their plans and decisions.

However, I have lost the last two battles, most recently just yesterday. Everyone is being swayed by the pastor's desire not to confront a couple of issues. It worries me a great deal. Sometimes, it seems like leadership shows up for the pre-meeting chicken, votes aye on a couple of things, and then goes home, never to think about their responsibilities until the next meeting. I'm going to let this newest issue ride for a couple of weeks and then try again. If I'm rebuffed, then I will have lost confidence in their desire to protect the body. I had already volunteered to take over as church treasurer next month. While going over all of what that entails, I've uncovered a lot of things that need to change. Will they accept my recommendations, which may anger some, or would my "losing streak" continue? I may have to reconsider the position.

So, does any of this relate to the thread? Perhaps. I'm concerned that the inner circle has been together too long and group think has happened. Worse, they might be too personally invested in a man who, in my opinion, is clearly making mistakes. I'm talking about my church here, but...

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Claymore on April 10th 2014, 6:58 pm

We need to remember that God knows us by our "Hearts" and our "Works" (and our "Works" just show where our "Hearts" are).

It is Natural for us to believe that the Leader in charge of a Multi-Thousand Member Ministry is more important than the Leader of an Outpost with only 9 Boys. But God knows what's in our hearts. Maybe the National Director Wouldn't/Couldn't take the time to work with the "Special Needs" kid who is always makes the Commander Cringe when he is seen coming. But Jesus spoke to us about taking care of the Lone Lost Sheep.

"Royal Rangers" isn't just an Outpost that wears uniforms and runs a Pinewood Derby. It's not even just a National or International Organization. It's a Mindset of Reaching, Teaching, and Keeping Boys for Christ.

Springfield may hold the Trademark on the Name and the Logo, but they cannot Trademark the Attitude.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by joecool on April 10th 2014, 7:36 pm

When a decision is reversed within 12 hours (Hello, World Vision?), without benefit of the whole team's input, you gotta wonder what's going on. It came via e-mail, so I responded via e-mail. Not a peep from anyone at mid-week ministries last night. (Calling up the image of those three monkeys hiding their eyes, ears and mouths.)

Our church will never grow until we acknowledge and correct our mistakes, and there have been a lot. We've been shrinking for the last 3 years. At one point, I thought that perhaps we were just shedding the chaff and getting down to our "fighting weight." I haven't believed that for awhile. Another RR parallel?

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by ccm2361 on April 10th 2014, 10:06 pm

Phillip Gross wrote:So can they not see these things too?

So many times have I asked this question. I honestly think they believe their own press releases.

The Premier, most in demand ministry etc...

Its as if they cant see past their own vision casting, to see the iceberg looming dead ahead, or the "emperor has no clothes on" etc


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Re: Can they not see?

Post by joecool on April 10th 2014, 11:22 pm

At what point will the allied, non-AG churches be in the majority and decide to take it over?

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Mark Jones on April 11th 2014, 1:38 pm

Let's pray for the Spirit of God to come in and clean house and throw out the bondwoman and her son. We have for the past 14 years tried to do it our own way. We had a program that was God's plan that was successful... until man got their ideas in there and started trying to do for him.

Let's trust God for REAL change and REAL ideas and give the kick in the but to the man stuff. It's foolishness anyway.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 11th 2014, 10:54 pm

I've gone on length before how many times we point out the holes in the boat before they set sail on open waters with these new fangled ideas. They couldn't see the holes no matter how eloquently or diplomatically we put it that IT JUST WON'T WORK!  

I'm reminded how John the Revelator puts it in the end of his church letters, "let him who hath an ear hear what the Spirit sayeth to the churches". In this case an eye to see what the Spirit is showing us.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 11th 2014, 11:02 pm

joecool wrote:At what point will the allied, non-AG churches be in the majority and decide to take it over?
Unlike stockholders we can't do a hostile takeover. We don't own shares.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Phillip Gross on April 12th 2014, 12:05 am

I'd be interested to see the statistics on successful outposts compared to outposts that flounder and fail. Are the successful ones running a sports or multimedia type program, or do they lean more towards the JB model?
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Re: Can they not see?

Post by joecool on April 12th 2014, 12:15 am

I use multi-media, but it complements our JB model.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Phillip Gross on April 12th 2014, 12:51 am

Maybe multimedia wasn't the correct term... I meant more arts, computer graphic design, etc. Like they showed us at NRMC.
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Re: Can they not see?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 12th 2014, 2:15 am

I kinda doubt that there are many successful outposts that keep their kids Indoors all the time. Rangers are to be adventurous which means going out of the 4 walls of the church.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Claymore on April 12th 2014, 10:22 am

I get the most enthusiasm when we do things like Camping, Horseshoes, Compass Courses, Trap Shooting.....

Hmmmm......any pattern here?

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by joecool on April 12th 2014, 11:43 am

I grew up (as an adult) on the original program. The second version was a complete disaster. The third version was an improvement, but still lacked in comparison to Johnny B. When Doug took over and announced imminent changes, I was excited. Now I'm just exhausted.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 13th 2014, 10:05 am

I'm tired of it.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Phillip Gross on April 13th 2014, 2:33 pm

I spoke with a pastor today who was in a meeting with a Sr Cmdr from a church somewhere that expressed their dislike for the changes. I wish there was a way to do a poll of current and past outposts, whether chartered or not, to get a real picture of what everyone feels. Basically get everything out on the table in an official report to see how well this direction is going.
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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Claymore on April 13th 2014, 3:18 pm

Actually, years ago, Headquarters WAS putting out some "feelers" to the Commanders on the Ground.

However, when much of the replies were not what they wanted to hear, those avenues of communication got shut down.

It eventually came down to the National Director putting out a Directive saying,
"Get on board, or get off the bus."


so...


"....the Three-Wheeled Bus goes Round-Round-Round......"

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 13th 2014, 9:43 pm

They floated their battleship with all the holes we told them it had and they fixed the holes with plugs. Still the design is there and not as good as the original. Much like the feds floated Obamacare with all of its problems without ever testing. I think bot situation they passed ideas into laws that were ill conceived.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Mark Jones on April 14th 2014, 12:29 pm

At our Commanders Conference this last weekend. There was a whole bunch of leaders that were MAD on the FCF Changes. I mean MAD.

When I questioned our District Commander he inferred much of the same as we know. If it's brought up it's turned back on you as "not a team player" so most are biding their time until the plane hits the ground and we will all stand back and tried to tell you, you were heading into a stall...not paying attention you lost a whole lot of attitude (Ranger Outposts) and now in a spiral about to see first hand what we have been warning you about.

When it comes to Salvation IF THEY WON'T LISTEN THEIR BLOOD IS NOT ON OUR HANDS. Yet we still need to try and tell them. It's much the same with Rangers us telling them for years now...it's getting worse each year it's time to pull up and pull your chute so we can get a new airplane like the other one that flew so good with the right pilot in it.

Just like Obamacare. There is too much pride in the vision to see a turn around. Both will pass when it's bankrupt.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 14th 2014, 12:39 pm

We're such QLC organization...NOT!  What a joke!

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by Mark Jones on April 14th 2014, 12:54 pm

Yes. It was a bad experience. QLC. It turned out to be a smoke screen.

After I think it all through.... I liked the JB program the best. It's was all about RTK and merits and advancements were ok..just not the feature of the program. Yup I liked the JB system. A whole lot less work and a whole lot more fun. We were known for something and good at it. In my opinion we were the top discipleship program. Not so today for sure.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by joecool on April 14th 2014, 2:27 pm

I haven't been to any formal leader's training in 15 years or more. It just seems like there's too much stuff out there. All the RR training resembles the college diploma mill. Spending tons of money and time to get a piece of paper (or a patch).

Life was simpler back in the day. Earn your LMA, get through NTC, and you were hooked and trained for life. Reach-Teach-Keep. K.I.S.S.

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Re: Can they not see?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 14th 2014, 2:38 pm

LMA modules wasn't all that simple either. Its basically 5 modules now. When I did blue LMA in 1994 it was 6 sat's at 12 hrs a piece. 

LMA (72hr) + NTC (74hr)=146 hrs
Advanced OLAL=104 hrs 

To me the hrs are less and its easier to track 5 modules: basics, essentials, safety (completed at your pace online), FA/CPR, NRMC/NEEC or previous NTC/RKTC accepted, and WCO. The Marriott LMA had almost a dozen modules to track.  

I think its been streamlined and none of the new training setup is remotely taxing our brains. Just go and you pass it. Its definitely power point lite compared to hundreds of slides in the old LTA.

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