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Breaking in the new guy

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on February 12th 2016, 11:11 pm

Even Ole Gideon was looking for some signs! Wink I personally don't think looking for "signs" are a bad thing in and of themselves. Jesus said "...by their fruit you'll know them". How will you know them? You'll see a sign of good or bad fruit. Even God in the beginning set up signs in Gen 1:14 ESV "And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,". So the lights in the expanse were placed there for four different reasons. He wasn't just being redundant. Also when the Holy Spirit came after Jesus, there was the evidence of such by speaking in tongues. The "tongues" aren't the Holy Spirit, but rather a "sign" of evidence.

I think the problem occurs when the "sign" is sought more than the signER! Smile Everything must be kept in perspective and in order.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on February 13th 2016, 12:10 am

So true Philip. I wasn't saying signs are bad we see them everyday to yield, stop, go, caution, etc they are warnings or proof of something. When we even as Christians seek signs we are looking for an emotionally exciting experience rather than seeking him. Otherwise we begin looking for gold pixie dust and feathers or pouring water from a preacher's mouth into another person's mouth. Oh look how great God was last night we didn't even have pastor preach. Well he is just as great when you are bound in chains in foreign prison as Paul was. He began worshipping God in song. He was able to do so without an emotionally charged sign, Bose speaker system, or stage lights.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on February 13th 2016, 12:24 am

Matthew 12:39 KJV
[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 16:4 KJV
[4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


Mark 8:12 KJV
[12] And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.


Luke 11:29 KJV
[29] And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.


Maybe these passages will help show where I was coming from. 


Last edited by RRCmdrBennett on February 13th 2016, 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on February 13th 2016, 12:28 am

That water thing from mouth to mouth sounds weird... Tell me that's not happening! I don't even drink after people, let alone let them spit in my mouth!! Laughing NOPE.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on February 13th 2016, 12:31 am

Phillip Gross wrote:That water thing from mouth to mouth sounds weird... Tell me that's not happening! I don't even drink after people, let alone let them spit in my mouth!! Laughing NOPE.

I bear no false witness. Seen it online. Misusing the man coming after me will never thirst verse.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on February 13th 2016, 12:31 am

Oh I knew where you were coming from, but I always like to bring up the other side so we don't get too one side heavy in our discussions. I think we're in agreement here. The cited verses were referring to people that ONLY wanted the signs instead of a relationship with the one who stood before them.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on February 13th 2016, 12:34 am

Hope this is on topic but I see too much sign and experience seekers in our churches today.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on February 13th 2016, 12:36 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote:
Phillip Gross wrote:That water thing from mouth to mouth sounds weird... Tell me that's not happening! I don't even drink after people, let alone let them spit in my mouth!! Laughing NOPE.

I bear no false witness. Seen it online. Misusing the man coming after me will never thirst verse.
Oh, well if you saw it online, then.... Laughing
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on February 13th 2016, 12:38 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Hope this is on topic but I see too much sign and experience seekers in our churches today.
Of course there are tons of churches that won't accept anything unless they can completely rationalize it and fit it into their box that they keep God in. Again, achieve balance we must...
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on February 13th 2016, 12:39 am

Whats that mean Philip?  We got charismatics barking like dogs and being led around like animals in some churches. If people handle venomous snakes I can believe they will share water mouth to mouth.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on February 13th 2016, 12:44 am

Phillip Gross wrote:
RRCmdrBennett wrote:Hope this is on topic but I see too much sign and experience seekers in our churches today.
Of course there are tons of churches that won't accept anything unless they can completely rationalize it and fit it into their box that they keep God in. Again, achieve balance we must...

Its not about boxing him in but discernment. We don't just get blessed on Sun and go living wordly the other six days. When the excitement wears off they lack power and faith. Thats why the Holy Spirit came.  Not to make us cluck like chickens and bark like dogs.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on February 13th 2016, 4:08 pm

Oh I totally agree with you about Holy Spirit's power not being meant to be abused and misused. I was just making a point that we unfortunately have a lot of churches on the extreme of both sides. They either get silly with things, or deny it altogether. We need to find where Father wants us to be.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on February 14th 2016, 1:05 am

You know how thrill-seekers keep upping the ante, trying to regain the rush they got the first time around? That's what it seems like for the people who follow signs-and-wonders leaders. Bethel Church has gone from fire tunnels to feathers to gold dust to grave sucking. What's next? They're already into native American animal dances during their praise band time.

There's no reverence there. It's just a never-ending assault on biblical boundaries. And it won't end well. Similar movements in the past never have.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on February 14th 2016, 10:12 am

That is the bane of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Church Movements. There are those who are in such a quest for a "Dynamic" God that they get hung up on chasing the "Dynamics" and not the God.

"Orthodox" Christian Churches tend to not suffer from the same movement of "chasers". It is true, that Pentecostals and Charismatics often refer to them as "dead" churches, but the Orthodox Churches do not have the same propensity to spin-off into undisciplined, unguided, self-destructive movements.

I'm not saying that "Orthodox" Churches are better. They can get stuck in their own traditions and legalism. But there are some religious maladies that they are a bit more resistant to.


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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on February 14th 2016, 10:42 am

Claymore wrote:That is the bane of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Church Movements. There are those who are in such a quest for a "Dynamic" God that they get hung up on chasing the "Dynamics" and not the God.

I couldn't help but notice how "dynamic" looks a lot like "dynamite". They're playing with a short fuse.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on February 14th 2016, 3:10 pm

We had a guest speaker this morning, and he had a couple of REALLY interesting things to say.

The one that struck home most was, "If you can't tell the difference between your Church Service Last Week and the Service This Week, then you are not Seeking after The Holy Spirit".

That sounds kind-of like a harsh, blanket statement, but I think that I understood where he was coming from.

If you had a really good Spirit-Filled Service, then what do the Pastor and Praise Team hear from the Congregation?  "Hey, that was Really Great.  Be sure and do it the same next week".  

They are seeking the Manifestation of God, rather than God, Himself.

Again, we can be critical of a Catholic, Lutheran, or Methodist Service, and say, "Aside from the Songs and the Sermons, it was exactly like all of their other Services for the Past Year".  

But in our own way, we can do the same thing: Cookie-Cutter Pentecostalism.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on February 15th 2016, 12:17 pm

Getting ready for the elder's requested meeting about Bethel Church's influence (which he's in favor of). My research shows that Bill Johnson's 3 kids are all employed full-time there, with 2 of them on their leadership team. Real good idea to have a lot of family in control. Always blows up in the end, though. Thinking of Saddam and his boys right now.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on March 1st 2016, 9:47 am

joecool wrote:Now I'll really get us back on topic. The new guy wisely stayed out of tonight's duel at the leadership meeting. The Bethel influence will finally be dealt with, once and for all. The showdown is in two weeks and there are fence-sitters who will be forced to make a decision. Depending on what it is, it will likely result in the departure of myself or an elder. It's been a long time coming.

March 19th is the showdown, and the District Superintendent will be there. I don't know if he's functioning as a referee or if he will be a participant. He certainly has a stake in this thing. There are 4 or 5 other churches in our state struggling with Bethel.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on March 31st 2016, 2:07 pm

Based on recent clues, it's likely that the new guy will make an announcement in the coming week of his imminent departure. (Be still, my beating heart!) During a long drive yesterday, my wife and I mapped out plans to get children's ministries back on track. Among other things...

...we have created "Voyagers", which will probably be scheduled during the Sunday school hour. The theme is The Core Of Discovery. It's a coed program with two age groups, being the Lewis Brigade (grades 3-6) and the Clark Brigade (grades K-2), so only two adult teachers are needed for now.

You've probably already figured out some of what it's about. Part of it's going to be a blend of similar Ranger and M'nette requirements that will result in the award of badges and advanced merits. When our church grows back to the size that it will support RRs and M'nettes again, the kids will already have a head start.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on March 31st 2016, 6:31 pm

Voyagers is the Great Lakes region's FCF territory name. Will Sacagawea make an appearance?  Without her the white boys would likely have failed.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 2nd 2016, 7:52 pm

Phillip Gross wrote:Oh I totally agree with you about Holy Spirit's power not being meant to be abused and misused. I was just making a point that we unfortunately have a lot of churches on the extreme of both sides. They either get silly with things, or deny it altogether. We need to find where Father wants us to be.

I don't think they deny God's power at all. The others don't believe in the "continuationism" of the gifts of the Spirit beyond the Apostles. They believe God can heal just not a gift he gives out to random people. If so why doesn't Binny Hinn clear out the St Judes hospital?  I have to admit I have never heard of anyone with gift of healing who can go around healing anyone instantly. Even Paul appears to lack the gift in later years he prays 3x's for personal healing and gives Timothy an Rx for to drink wine for his oft stomach ailments. 

Bruce what is Fire tunnels and grave suckers?  

Claymore you hit it spot on. I read pentecostal/charismatics have a much higher rate of ministerial corruption. I hear how awesome church was or how blessed people got but they keep going back to same ways week after week camp after camp relying on a "narcotic high" they claim is Spirit filled. Say it was so good tonight we had no preaching. The Word of God preached trumps all exuberance. We've lost focus on the Fruit but focus on signs, wonders, gifts, etc that excite our itching ears.  I do wonder what would happen if you pull the plug on the speakers and music would worship be as exuberant?  I see a difference in local services compared to camp services and style of evangelist can rev up the flesh to excitement. Pastors always wonder why it don't "stick" maybe it will this time. Insanity is doing same thing over and over again and expecting different results. We need the focus to be on the inward development of the Fruit of the Spirit not outward signs of excitement. 

I guess that doesn't sound so Pentecostal but I'm a Christ Follower. Even title Christian has been corrupted by the would.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on April 2nd 2016, 10:23 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Bruce what is Fire tunnels and grave suckers?  

I read pentecostal/charismatics have a much higher rate of ministerial corruption. I hear how awesome church was or how blessed people got but they keep going back to same ways week after week camp after camp relying on a "narcotic high" they claim is Spirit filled.

Fire tunnels is kind of like running a gauntlet, without the physical violence. Instead of that, both lines of people are "imparting" spiritual gifts on the people walking through. Grave sucking is done by people who are looking to receive wisdom and a leadership mantle from some deceased evangelist or big-time theologian. They literally lay down on top of the gravesite, and suck it up. One of our elders endorses it, but says that you have to be the first one there for it to work. All of this gets wackier and wackier as the years go by. Why? You answered it above. People don't get that emotional thrill anymore, so they get more extreme. Just like an addict and his drugs. At some point, there will be a big crash. A pastor I know calls it "charismania".



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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on April 3rd 2016, 2:43 am

Why does PCCNA include them?  

Sick no one imparts gifts or can absorb another's essence. Thats occult mysticism. I think my church's "prayer shaw" ministry is the same. They pattern it after  Paul napkin. I'm guessing the grave thing is after Elijah giving his mantle to Elisha. This is the self empowerment movement.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on April 3rd 2016, 10:04 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote: church's "prayer shawl" ministry

What's the prayer shawl? Is it a single item up front that people are encouraged to touch?

My wife has made over a hundred prayer quilts (lap size). They are given or mailed to people who have requested our church to pray for a need, usually a physical healing. There's no power in the fabric. It's just a tangible reminder that others are praying for them.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on April 3rd 2016, 3:30 pm

"Rosaries and Holy Cards demonstrate the relationship between the Catholic Church and Pagan Cults by trying to use Magic Items and Talismans to gain favor with God..........

Now here, take this Prayer Cloth............."

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

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