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Breaking in the new guy

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 23rd 2013, 6:48 pm

We've belonged to 4 churches in 35 years.  So while I don't believe that I am a "church-hopper", I'm not "married" to any one, either.

That's kind-of why I don't want to be an Elder at this church.  I feel that if I am not in 98% support with the church, its denomination, and their dogma & policies, then I probably should not be in the Senior Chain of Command.

But I also believe that if I give my financial support & work hours to a Pastor that I do not agree with, it is kind of a "Pearls to Swine" thing.

Since I believe that "them Baptists & Methodists" can go to heaven as much as we can, my opinions probably wouldn't be too welcome on the board, anyway.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Mark Jones on November 23rd 2013, 6:59 pm

I have been in 3 AG churches. I still attend 2 of them. GRIN! One has Full blown RR ministry the other has the title but no real support from the church.

There is 11 AG churches with in 10 miles of each other. So I have options I can explore.

It still boils down to the Pastor. If he is for it.. it will go. If he is lack luster it will fade. Easy way to tell where he stands.... funding.

I put in over 20 hours a week in Ranger Ministry. Also a good chunk of my funds go there as well. I wouldn't invest that kind of work and funding in a church that didn't fund rangers.

I have 3 AG pastors in my inner family. I have experienced first hand "new ideas for ministry and how they treat folks" so I no longer have them any higher than me in position between us and God. When Jesus ripped that veil.. I have no desire to go back into that bondage.

I help where I can. Yet I am no fool. Pastors are the key..it's a matter of finding a good one.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 23rd 2013, 7:27 pm

My honesty sometimes gets in the way of my tact.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 23rd 2013, 8:34 pm

Claymore wrote:

Since I believe that "them Baptists & Methodists" can go to heaven as much as we can, my opinions probably wouldn't be too welcome on the board, anyway.
I'm interested in your opinions... I may not always agree with them, as with many other opinions on this board, but I'm interested in your opinions. Smile  But I respect your decision to hold back if you think that's prudent. I hold back a LOT of my opinions in the name of prudence here on this board. "What???" Yep,... if you only knew all the things I've thought about saying! Laughing
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 23rd 2013, 8:44 pm

Phillip, I was talking about the Church Board.

(Heaven knows that I've "locked horns" with plenty of folks on THIS board).

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 23rd 2013, 9:01 pm

Laughing Gotcha!
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on November 23rd 2013, 10:37 pm

Hey, you two stop talking about me! lol! 

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 23rd 2013, 10:43 pm

It's JoeCool's situation, and I respect him for setting high standards for himself --- even if he considers the situation unpalatable.

My "personal" opinion is that someone who takes money from me to do a service is an employee, and I feel that more pastors and members of Congress would do well to remember that.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 23rd 2013, 10:53 pm

I feel that's more of a "western" mentality than a Biblical one. I believe God does in fact place people in authority much the way a mother and father are in authority in their home. Don't like it? Leave and find another home, or start your own.

I feel that's the same in a church, but of course I agree with Theocratic government as we've discussed previously. Not saying that there needs to be a "Jim Jones" style blind following, but I do believe in godly leadership..... that aren't necessarily "hired hands".
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on November 23rd 2013, 11:06 pm

Personally, I feel Claymore's statement is true. I feel ultimately our covenant is with Jesus Christ. To use the marriage analogy to a church is a little too much like Catholicism, SDA, or JW where you are strictly told not to ever attend other churches even on trips or a different day. Attending other churches even once is viewed like adultery on your home church. My father inlaw's church is like that regarding other churches. We left that church due to their pastor who would rather preach at you than pull you to the side and explain his stance on tithing on gifts. Then sits us down when we try to participate in communion.

I think the reason for western mentality regarding churches is many of us are from protestant, evangelical, and pentacostal churches. All of these church types are splintered from either catholicism or mainline church denominations. If all is theocratic then why is there so many denominations under different heads? I believe even non-church attenders can be just as saved as regulars on Sunday mornings.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 23rd 2013, 11:14 pm

I am SOOOO blessed that my experiences with church is much different than some of you has been. I've experienced, past and currently, a system that seeks to help people, yet not control them. Even our RR and AHG meetings are held on Friday night so we can reach others in the community, whether of our exact doctrinal beliefs or not. We currently have Baptist and Lutheran kids that come to our outpost meetings.

We've also co-labored with churches other than our mirror image at different times on projects.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on November 23rd 2013, 11:39 pm

A church willing to invest a third dayof the week is rare. I wish we could get the buy-in for that. Instead of having an outpost with its head cut-off.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 23rd 2013, 11:53 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:To use the marriage analogy to a church is a little too much like Catholicism, SDA, or JW where you are strictly told not to ever attend other churches even on trips or a different day. Attending other churches even once is viewed like adultery on your home church. My father inlaw's church is like that regarding other churches. We left that church due to their pastor who would rather preach at you than pull you to the side and explain his stance on tithing on gifts. Then sits us down when we try to participate in communion.



Dan brings up an interesting point!

The two places where I have seen most of the "You must do as I say, because God put me here" mentality is in the Clergy of some Southern Holiness Pentecostal Churches and the Catholic Church.

Now, not all Holiness Pentecostal Preachers are like that, and not all Priests are like that. It just happens to be where I have noticed it most.

One of the "Holiness" pastors that I mentioned also told us that he didn't want us going to the Annual Community Service with those Baptists, Methodists, and others (was he concerned about us getting corrupted, or was he afraid that we might learn something?).

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 24th 2013, 12:05 am

That's incredibly sad and angering at the same time! I suppose I don't blame you guys for having a bad taste in your mouths with situations like that happening. It's so frustrating when I hear of Christians fighting with each other more (it seems at times) than with the true enemy!

My "personal" opinion is that as long as we agree that 1) there is only one way to gain salvation, and 2) that one and only way is through Jesus Christ, then we can work together. We may hold differing doctrinal views. We may vehemently disagree about things. Fine. We can even discuss and debate those said differences, as long as we don't let it interfere with the main battle at hand.

Dan asked why so many denominational differences. In my mind it's as simple as that God made so many different types of people. I believe that God is bigger than our finite minds can completely comprehend. If He could be comprehended completely, would He be God? I also think that anyone who claims they posses the whole pie is either self-deceived or a liar.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 24th 2013, 12:12 am

I don't know if I've said this here, but if I did, then chock it up to Short-Term Memory Loss:

I see it as similar to a man whose three kids give him presents for his birthday:

The first daughter draws a pretty picture of her & Dad & flowers.

The second daughter writes a poem of love and gives it to Dad.

The son buys Dad a football.

All three kids think that the others' presents are stupid, and each believes that he/she gave the best gift.

However, the Father loves them all, and appreciates all of their gifts.

I think that as Christian Denominations, we are like the three kids, and the Father is ...............

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 24th 2013, 12:16 am

I like it!

Father sees the heart that nobody else can. Great analogy.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on November 24th 2013, 5:43 pm

Reading between the lines, it seems we have a wide range of church experiences. Maybe we should jointly write a book aimed at pastors. Different chapter titles might include; "What's the worst possible thing that could happen?", and "Is the pain worth the potential?"

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 24th 2013, 6:58 pm

Problem is that the Pastors who would read the book are probably already doing it right, and those who need what is in it wouldn't read it.

The pastor who I had the worst time with refused to read any book other than the Bible. He said that all other books were "...just words from dead men's skulls".

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 24th 2013, 8:42 pm

Claymore wrote:

The pastor who I had the worst time with refused to read any book other than the Bible.  He said that all other books were "...just words from dead men's skulls".
But it seems that I've heard similar sentiments brought forth from various members here in reference to Doug Marsh's book. So what's the difference? If you (general "you") agree with a book then it's good to read, but if not then we should just stick with the Bible only?
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 24th 2013, 9:13 pm

We're not talking about holding a leader on his back and shoving a book down his throat in order to be certified.

We're talking about Knowledge, in general from various sources.

The guy that I was referring to was so "King James Only" that he believed that Jesus spoke in 16th Century King James English.

If you showed him a translation of the original Greek or Hebrew Text, and it did not DIRECTLY translate to the King James, then the Original Text and its translation must be in error.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by ccm2361 on November 24th 2013, 9:19 pm

I don't feel that churches should be excluding anyone because they belong to another denomination.

For me, if we can agree that Jesus is the Son of God, He died on the Cross & rose again on the 3rd day.. then I can find a way to work with you.

Phillip Gross wrote:
Claymore wrote:

The pastor who I had the worst time with refused to read any book other than the Bible.  He said that all other books were "...just words from dead men's skulls".
But it seems that I've heard similar sentiments brought forth from various members here in reference to Doug Marsh's book. So what's the difference? If you (general "you") agree with a book then it's good to read, but if not then we should just stick with the Bible only?
That seems odd to me.
I love to read. I read Fiction, History & Christian books Even Christian fiction
.
I just finished reading a great book called "satan wants me, but God has me" A book written by a local lady who was a witch, before hearing a fire & brimstone sermon from a Baptist minister & being saved. Today she is an ordained Minister & Missionary.
Awesome book about how satan operates & the simple things we can do to thwart him through the power of the blood of Jesus.

Why should we shun things like that? It helped me a lot.

Doug Marsh's books? I have questions about the motive behind them. He said in 2008 (in the Seek & Save article on page 8 )

Doug Marsh wrote:
Outstanding! What is Jim Collins’ third question?
His third question has to do with the economic
engines
required to propel Royal Rangers forward.
While as a national team we spent a great
deal of time determining this
, for the purposes of
our visit, I don’t feel it would be necessary to dive
into the topic now. Let me point out the obvious,
though, if I may. Ministries, even Royal Rangers,
must have a plan to generate funding. You can’t
have a thriving local, district, and national cause
to reach, teach, and keep boys without financial
resources at all levels.
If you do not have a copy of seek & save & would like one-let me know I can email you one

One way to "Drive the economic engine of Royal Rangers" is to write a book & then make it required reading for every Ranger.
That may not be his reason for writing the book...but it really doesn't look good to me.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 24th 2013, 9:38 pm

I personally don't have a problem with "Christian" books per se. I obviously try to separate the meat from the bones and digest what's good.

I have never read anything by Doug Marsh. I may agree, but I don't know...
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on November 24th 2013, 9:43 pm

Claymore wrote:
The guy that I was referring to was so "King James Only" that he believed that Jesus spoke in 16th Century King James English.

If you showed him a translation of the original Greek or Hebrew Text, and it did not DIRECTLY translate to the King James, then the Original Text and its translation must be in error.
People like that drive me crazy! I personally wouldn't attend a church with such a close minded individual. I subscribe, along with my pastor, to the view of using multiple translations. For just normal reading I like a "thought for thought" translation like NLT. For studying I prefer a "Direct Translation" and even use KJ because of the Greek and Hebrew Lexicons that accompany that version. I'd LOVE to one day learn how to read the original text.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by ccm2361 on November 24th 2013, 10:07 pm

Me too
Christi & I have both started reading the Messianic Complete Jewish Bible/ NIV side by side reference edition. We love it. I love seeing how the Jewish Bible translates out.

Get it here

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on November 24th 2013, 11:36 pm

Phillip Gross wrote:

People like that drive me crazy! I personally wouldn't attend a church with such a close minded individual.
Indeed!  and he was the one who demanded that we dance to his tune, and attend no-one else's services.

18 months ago, I told my wife that I didn't want to attend this church, anymore.  The only thing that kept me was a bunch of little Gremlins that kept showing up on Wednesday Nights.

If I didn't do the job, it wouldn't get done (kind-of like changing the oil in the family vehicles).

But, he's gone and I'm still here, so we will see how things go with the next pastor.

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