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Breaking in the new guy

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Mark Jones on December 15th 2013, 10:39 am

Guys you can't push from the bottom up. I tried. It was very frustrating and it didn't work. I left went to a church that has a heart for Rangers and put my gifting there The other church has been in a constant struggle since then. Just keep in mind it's like Obamacare. Obmama will kill everything trying to prove his program is right. GRIN!


Best to just walk away from it kick the dirt off your feet and go someplace where God is moving with your gifts.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by ccm2361 on December 15th 2013, 10:01 pm

Claymore wrote:I am going to divulge a secret that everyone here knows: Royal Rangers Builds Leaders.

I think that is something that the National office does not promote enough.
they talk about Evangelizing, Equipping & Empowering Christ like servant leaders..but to me they could say a whole lot more about leadership.

That is one of the 4 core things our outpost focuses on. Leadership, Teamwork, life skills & prayer.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on December 16th 2013, 8:54 am

Not trying to stir up a poo storm, but I still feel that a lot of complaints about national is a matter of semantics. Of course I know I never heard some of the comments made at LEAD conferences like you guys have. I'm just going off of what I've read on the National site, what I saw and heard at all the training I've done, and what our state guys say. Maybe there was someone who made crazy statements about man made things, but everything I've heard has been that the Empowerment comes directly and solely from the Holy Spirit.

So when I see you guys say you want more about leadership in one post, and then other posts about how not everyone is going to be a leader and it's all a man made failing endeavor, maybe you can see where I feel there's a disconnect. Potato Potato, Tomato Tomato.... (<--- I know that works better verbally...)
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on December 16th 2013, 1:03 pm

Its not about building leadership thats the problem but the methods being employed to do it. JB did it through the camping/outdoor program and it worked. These new methods are untested in the 75% of the A/G churches that run under 150 members.

I'll elaborate:

Leadership merits contain a lot of sitting and reading. They were designed as weekend event merits until feedback demanded they produce 5 week lesson plans. Royal Rangers 2.0 was supposed to get kids out of a pool by requiring 2 leadership weekend events. That doesn't draw me neither will it excite them. I do like some of the games they are fun and build leadership. Each group was to exclusively teach its own leadership merit color. Its made for large groups. Their solution was to team up with another outpost. Not feasable in many situations. They relented and allowed DR to team up with AR, AR with DR or ER, and ER with AR.

The original capstone project was unmanageable. A expensive 12 week course you had to run outside regular class.

These were designed by someone (Ryan) who enjoys seminary and college. He had a lot of neat ideas that work on paper but ineffective in the real world of boys participating in a once a week ministry.

I have heard the audios from past LEADs. Doug did say it. I've seen it stated that the Holy Spirit empowers. There is confusion from the top rungs. As Indians would say, "white man speak with forked tongue". Ryan tried to say it works both ways: us empowering others and the Holy Spirit. That would be like saying there's an alternative road to Heaven.

Bible merits (browns) were redesigned to hit 5 core points in each lesson. Now its any 6 lessons with 2 alternatives (SS, summer wed night bible study, children's church, even ER Spirit Challenge lessons). Its been over 3 years and yet we only have 10/24 orange merits.

The way nat'l has behaved and the way your district/section teaches is not always in alignment. Some districts are more inline with Doug et al than others.

Our mission statement focused on reaching the lost for Christ but now its redesigned to give pastors something they want: servant/leaders. The entire RR2.0 paradyne is built on secular business models and marketing. Make old pastors take a new look at Royal Rangers.

Under the "bringing rangers to the ipod generation" slogan we were told we could take camping/outdoors, arts/drama, sports, technology, and trades and it make an exclusive focus for the entire outpost. That was another bright idea from Mr Ryan. Not achievable with the current merits available. Only the camping/outdoors and Sports focus has a chance of being an exclusive focus. Even Sports would be difficult given once a merit is earned its not revisited for another 3 years. That doesn't work in sports you need time and lots of time to practice. Much more time than 1.5 hrs a week allows. Now marches in RR2.0 same focus areas under a new slogan. They realized their error in promoting exclusivity and now its about including all focus areas with not one of them being more dominate than the other. They won't bat an eye if a new outpost doesn't ever go outdoors but if you're outdoors focused you have to do other things equally.

We are a uniformed boys ministry...now we're not. Doug puts out a picture of rangers all the uniforms and one is in jeans and tee shirt. Says all are Royal Rangers but how would you know when he looks like a member of Youth.

I do believe there are different types of leaders. Not all are pastors, deacons, teachers, etc and they do need to be trained. Will most boys be servant/leaders I doubt it will happen the way our nat'l wants it to.

Every time we pointed out these things I listed were issues we were discredits as uninformed kooks, marginalized, and even demonized. Wait for next LEAD and miraculously "the spirit" leads them to backpedal from what they originally claimed the Spirit led them to do in 2008.

National is out of touch with 75% of its churches that aren't mid to mega size like some in the Springfield area. These fancy ideas fly much better in a big church with a bit more $, resources, and manpower. Doesn't work so well in a Mich outpost run mainly by a husband/wife team with no M'ette leaders. Do you try to run 2 programs or just the better of the 2?

Joe, sounds like a political takeover. Putting in new people aka teenagers is just what nat'l has done in Royal Rangers by pushing out the old guys/gals. Teenagers don't know what works and have no experience i the real world. Political leaders try this all the time: Hitler Youth now White House Youth! If he's ousted previous heads of ministries, putting in young people he can manage more easily, and is tight lipped on Royal Rangers future you can bet the guillotine blade is about to fall.


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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on December 16th 2013, 2:51 pm

In regards to the OP's topic, things can change. Prayer can change the hearts of men. Mark is right that changing from the bottom is difficult if not impossible, but we don't need to try. God can move on people's hearts. 

Or maybe it will close down at which time you'll have to ask God what His plan for your life is then. 

Have you considered having rangers outside of the normal night? Maybe even only asking to use the facilities, but raise funds outside of the normal church budget? Basically operate as a third party entity with the blessing of the pastor like a BSA troop who met at a church. I know that may sound ludicrous, but we're dealing with a big God here. We always harp on trusting in God, but what if He's trying to test us in that? 

There may come a day when churches in general will face these types of questions. What if the gov revokes church's nonprofit statuses and they start getting taxed under normal business tax laws? How many people will continue to give to the church if they don't even get a tax deduction for it? We may ALL have to find new ways to operate....

Just a wild thought.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on December 16th 2013, 2:59 pm

To Dan's post...

We've beat this horse silly. I don't deny that these comments have been made, but I wasn't here in 2008 so I didn't hear them. I believe what you say, but question whether holding their feet to the fire as they try to step it back is good. I know I want people to give me mercy when I realize I've made a mistake.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on December 16th 2013, 5:51 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:
Joe, sounds like a political takeover. Putting in new people aka teenagers is just what nat'l has done in Royal Rangers by pushing out the old guys/gals. Teenagers don't know what works and have no experience i the real world. Political leaders try this all the time: Hitler Youth now White House Youth!  If he's ousted previous heads of ministries, putting in young people he can manage more easily, and is tight lipped on Royal Rangers future you can bet the guillotine blade is about to fall.  

Yeah, I've pretty much come to the same conclusion. I don't have a problem with teenagers coming in. My wife and I have used a few over the years. But to do that to the exclusion of adult volunteers? He gets better control that way.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on December 16th 2013, 6:07 pm

Phillip Gross wrote: Have you considered having rangers outside of the normal night? Maybe even only asking to use the facilities, but raise funds outside of the normal church budget? Basically operate as a third party entity with the blessing of the pastor like a BSA troop who met at a church. I know that may sound ludicrous, but we're dealing with a big God here. We always harp on trusting in God, but what if He's trying to test us in that? 

Actually, my wife and I were discussing that very thing yesterday. If Rangers goes away, it's a two-fer. The new guy won't have a replacement AND M'nettes. They're both gone, in favor of some co-ed program. If it happens, we plan to ask for an off-night RR program that we fund ourselves. Of course, we'll gauge the level of support from leaders and parents before starting. My wife sees M'nettes folding entirely, but has no problem working with RR. And what if it ended up being co-ed, too? There's a wealth of experience on this site to tap into.  

(There's a NW Region RR website. On it was a "bucket list" from RR leaders, and a request for us to keep sending them in. My input was "Surviving the new children's pastor", and included an explanation. No response the last 2 weeks.)

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on December 16th 2013, 6:29 pm

Probably have people who want to give a reply, but are scared to. 

Either run it coed if that's what the numbers demand, or look into American Heritage Girls. It has it's pros and cons, like any program, but overall seems to be a good thing. We're still working through it and will be tailoring it to fit us, but we like it.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on December 16th 2013, 6:44 pm

joecool wrote:
RRCmdrBennett wrote:
Joe, sounds like a political takeover. Putting in new people aka teenagers is just what nat'l has done in Royal Rangers by pushing out the old guys/gals. Teenagers don't know what works and have no experience i the real world. Political leaders try this all the time: Hitler Youth now White House Youth!  If he's ousted previous heads of ministries, putting in young people he can manage more easily, and is tight lipped on Royal Rangers future you can bet the guillotine blade is about to fall.  

Yeah, I've pretty much come to the same conclusion. I don't have a problem with teenagers coming in. My wife and I have used a few over the years. But to do that to the exclusion of adult volunteers? He gets better control that way.

I didn't mean exclude teens I do think we should put them to work. To exclude all but teens is likely for getting complete cooperation. Basically, he gete yes-man yes-women.

Philip, it was good talking to you today over the phone. Finally, its nice to have southern voice to the face. You look younger than you sound. Was my northern accent easy to understand?

We had a conversation on politics in government and in churches. Seems to me when $ is involved (salary) politics comes in. I do question what would people do if tax exemption is removed? Are youth pastors and associate pastors willing to work secular jobs while pastoring? I'd be sure many NT pastors and leaders worked jobs too.



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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on December 16th 2013, 7:58 pm

Good talking to you too Dan! You didn't sound as much like a Yankee as I thought you would! Laughing  Yes, I wonder what will happen to the church when we really start to face persecution. Pastor Marty dipped into that this past Sunday.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on December 16th 2013, 8:39 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote: I do question what would people do if tax exemption is removed?  

I think that the Government is Scared To Death to remove Tax Exemption from Churches. Pastors could say, "Since donations are not Tax Deductable, just bring in cash: no checks, no debit cards."

Pastors could openly advocate Pro-Christian Candidates from the Pulpit. Christian Groups could purchase Radio & TV ads condemning the stances of Liberal Candidates with Anti-Christian Agendas.


.......and maybe the Catholic Church could Excommunicate the Pro-Abortion Kennedy Family, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on December 16th 2013, 8:47 pm

Claymore, maybe that would be a good thing. Its like hush $ to keep us quiet.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on December 16th 2013, 9:11 pm

Never thought about that side of it... 

I just think that hard times have a way of separating the players from the real fighters. I've been to Europe and Asia and have seen Christians so much more willing to lay their lives down for the gospel than those in the U.S.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on December 16th 2013, 9:44 pm

In my small group last Thursday, that very issue came up. No one felt that the loss of a tax-deduction would have any effect on what comes in. Me, sorry to say that I'm not as optimistic as they are.

Over the past two years, our church went through a loss of members and tithes/offerings. Just finished the upcoming budget, and we had to cut $100K of spending (about 25%). Funny thing is, we didn't lay anyone off, we hired an additional pastor, and we didn't cancel any ministries. We did cut a lot of fat/rust that had accumulated over the years. If only our government could do that.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on December 17th 2013, 12:02 am

I've heard financial analysts say that, if our Government could cut 1% from the Federal Budget per year, in 5 years we would no longer be Deficit Spending, and starting in Year #6, we would be reducing the National Debt.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on December 17th 2013, 9:49 am

Whatever happened to the Balanced Budget Amendment? Hmmm. There was an article in the last week or so concerning a state-led drive for a constitutional convention. Definitely time to rein in the federal side of things.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Phillip Gross on December 17th 2013, 10:09 am

They better if they want to keep these states united.

That's what kills me! People don't understand the concept that each state is supposed to be it's own sovereignty. We're not just sub sects of one country like counties and towns within a state.

The battle of words! The word "state" has lost it's meaning.
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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by RRCmdrBennett on December 17th 2013, 2:52 pm

Try capitalizing State. Schools don't teach State Sovernity. I hear many people proudly say, "We are ONE NATION under God". I hear federalism when I hear that said. Civil War or TWONA was no different than Russia controlling the countries in the old USSR. The victors write history books and indoctrinate a new generation. I believe America's glory days are behind us we will diminish in power and influence our wealth will be plundered.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on December 17th 2013, 10:11 pm

The two worst things that the States allowed was the 17th Ammendment (that took the appointment of Senators away from the State Letislatures) and allowing a Federally Controlled Income Tax.

By taking appointment of Senators away from the States, the election of a Senator in Michigan can be funded by Special Interest Groups in Ohio. The Senator is no longer looking out for the interest of his Home-State. He is looking out for who is financint his/her campaign.

The Federal Income Tax was introduced as a Temporary measure to finance World War I. Once the Government got its hands on that money, they never let it go.

Ogiginally, individuals earning under $3,000.00 (approximately $70,000.00 in 2010 dollars) and couples earning under $4,000.00 (approximately $90,000.00 in 2010 dollars) paid no federal income tax.

Above those amounts, you paid 1% of your annual income up to $16,000.00 ($352,000.00 in 2010 dollars).

99% of Americans paid no income tax when the law was first enacted.

If the States had been wise, THEY would have collected the money, based upon what the Federal Government requested, and then allocate it to D.C., thereby maintaining control, rather than begging Washington for funds.


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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on December 17th 2013, 10:19 pm

Claymore wrote: 99% of Americans paid no income tax when the law was first enacted.

We're well on our way to that again. Something on the order of 48% right now. When it gets to 51%, we're toast. The takers will vote in a permanent political class that will drive us into a bankruptcy we can't avoid.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on December 17th 2013, 11:50 pm

Good point.

People are generally better stewards, if they have some skin in the game.

Of course, they had no computers then. For many people, there was no Federal Withholding. They figured what they made the year before, and had until April 15 to pay the amount.

If we did that today, half of the Nation would go to Tax Prison.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by joecool on January 9th 2014, 9:16 pm

Last night didn't go well in Missionette land. Over the holiday period, the "new guy" had directed some of the sponsors to change their curriculum and reassign some kids. On the first night back, it certainly caught my wife off guard. This was just the latest problem. She has decided to step down from being the overall coordinator of this program. Our senior pastor is away for a few days on district business, so I'll let him know when he returns.

If the new guy was 22 and fresh out of Bible college, I could sort of understand his clumsiness. But he's a decade older, and we're his third church. He's been a continual thorn in our side with every children's program.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember which of you is involved in a pastoral search right now. It is SO vital to make sure you have the Holy Spirit's leading in the selection. For our last two associate hires, we had the senior pastor's leading, and both were/are difficult.

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by ccm2361 on January 9th 2014, 10:17 pm

Thank you

it's me that is in the Pastor search. We have a Pastor candidate in this weekend.  Cool 

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Re: Breaking in the new guy

Post by Claymore on January 9th 2014, 11:12 pm

Not just you, Chris.

Our last Pastor has been gone for about 8 months. The State has appointed us a "Temporary" Pastor, who is a fine man, well-respected, & learned. But he is 71 years old, resides 2 hours away, and was called out of retirement to help to see us through the dry-spell.

Church of God is different from A/G, in that the our State gives us a choice of a couple of candidates, and we vote for 1 of the 2. This can be a fair system, but if they want, they can also offer us a couple of State "Ringers" of a choice between a "Ringer" and a "Swayback Horse".

Much of our Church Board has gotten wise to this, and have come to the conclusion that, if we want our pastors appointed by the Bishop, we can go to the Catholic or Anglican Church.

Unfortunately, we have "Kool-Aid Drinkers" who fall back on the "He was put there by God" mantra. But I don't think that there is a desk at State with that being the only name plate on it in their building.


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