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NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 3rd 2013, 12:49 pm

Tiny things can make a considerable difference in pressures & performance.

When reloading, when going from a 160 grain to a 180 grain bullet can take a load from "Safe" to "Danger".

Things as small as changing primer-type have been reported to push pressures past "Safe".

Probably one of the most consistant things that I have noticed is using military brass (7.62 and 5.56 mm) from the civilian counterpart (.308 and .223) almost always causes an increase in pressure.

The "easy" answer is that the military brass is thicker. Now, you would think that thicker brass would make a safer load, but a friend of mine who worked in a factory gave me a simple rule about reloading......

"When you decrease the size of the Boiler, you increase the Steam Pressure inside it."

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 3rd 2013, 6:45 pm

Why do they make military brass thicker?

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 3rd 2013, 7:17 pm

Because it has to work in machineguns.

Machineguns have looser chambers, because they need to still function after firing thousands of rounds in dirty/wet/jungle/arctic conditions (something that your Savage is not expected to do).

It probably stands to reason that if thinner brass must swell to chambers with large tollerances, it would be more suceptible to rupture, case failure, and possible head-seperation upon extraction.



Last edited by Claymore on June 3rd 2013, 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 3rd 2013, 7:36 pm

Can the civilian shells be fired in their military counterparts?
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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Phillip Gross on June 3rd 2013, 8:31 pm

I always heard that you can shoot 223 in a rifle chambered for 5.56, but you shouldn't shoot 5.56 in a rifle chambered for 223.
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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 3rd 2013, 10:10 pm

Phillip pretty-much has it right.

You should not shoot Mil-Spec rifle ammunition in civilian arms.

However, you can take fired military brass, resize it in .308 or .223 dies and load & shoot it in your civilian gun (just remember the brass-thickness-thing).

By the way, I'm classifying AR-15's and M1-A's (and similar) as military guns, because they generally have Mil-Spec chamber tolerances.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 3rd 2013, 10:16 pm

Sounds similar to how you can shoot .38 in a .357 mag but not .357 mag in a .38 special.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by ccm2361 on June 3rd 2013, 10:42 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Sounds similar to how you can shoot .38 in a .357 mag but not .357 mag in a .38 special.

But for a different reason. .357 cases are purposely made too long to chamber in a .38 Special. The cylinder will not close. (which is a real good thing)

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 3rd 2013, 10:49 pm

(Chris & I were typing at the same time, so our first comment is the same.)

Except that you cannot load a .357 case in a .38 Special Revolver.

You can load a 7.62 in a .308, and you can load a 5.56 in a .223 gun.

Back when I was a youth, I got some military 7.62 machinegun ammunition and shot it through a .308 Interarms Mark X Bolt Action Rifle.

The excessive pressure threw the gun out of headspace. (See, another thing about the thick military brass is that it will not expand and grip the chamber walls as much as its civilian counterpart. So it puts more pressure on the locking lugs of the rifle -- which it did.)

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 4th 2013, 12:16 am

Are the .223 and .308 that are styled like military rifles handle both or does the rifle have to specifically state the mm size can be loaded? Could the reason they're so hot to take MSR's out of civilian hands is because they can chamber military metric rounds?
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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 4th 2013, 12:51 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Are the .223 and .308 that are styled like military rifles handle both or does the rifle have to specifically state the mm size can be loaded? Could the reason they're so hot to take MSR's out of civilian hands is because they can chamber military metric rounds?

If it has a "Milspec" chamber, then it will have the metric designation on the barrel.

Insofar as Part 2 of your question: no, they don't think that far. Diane Feinstein even wants to outlaw .22 rimfires if it is a black, evil-looking gun.

30 years ago, they wanted to ban the importation of Glocks and ban the manufacture of any gun that used polymer in the frame, because they thought that the guns could "magically" pass through metal detectors.

I, honest to goodness, once had an attorney say to me, "....don't confuse me with the facts".

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 4th 2013, 1:52 am

I've seen those metrics before and now it makes better sense.

Is that what makes them more pricy?


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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 4th 2013, 1:57 am

I think that it's the other-way-around.

It's not that they have the Milspec caliber that makes them pricey;

It's that the higher quality, pricier guns elect to go with the Milspec caliber.

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Home Defense: Double barrel shotgun vs. AR-15?

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 5th 2013, 12:34 am

http://youtu.be/qKk45i9DzDA
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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 5th 2013, 1:31 am

I've seen some of Hickok45's other videos.

He makes many good points, but he causes me to sin:

Thou shalt not covet

I definately lust after his range.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 5th 2013, 2:44 am

Oh so do I!

I've also seen his XDm vs. Glock. Everyone at the range who shot mine loved it.

Though for the love of old west guns I'd love to own a coach gun like Chris has.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 5th 2013, 1:31 pm

Hickok45 makes a good point about shotgun spread patterns. This is something that I used to teach to our Entry Guys:

Basic Rule of Thumb for a 12 Gauge Shotgun spread is about 1 inch of spread per yard from the muzzle. In other words, a target 5 yards (15 feet) from you will give a spread of roughly 5 inches.

I know about different chokes and shot buffer compounds, etc. This rule is just to give the officer an idea of how much (or little) coverage you can expect with a shotgun.

If the threat is 5 yards away, don't expect a shotgun to pepper the entire wall. Conversely, if the threat is 25 yards away, be aware that a couple of pellets from the pattern could strike a person or object 2 feet away from your intended target.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 5th 2013, 9:08 pm

Can you explain, "shot buffer compounds"?

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 5th 2013, 9:49 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Can you explain, "shot buffer compounds"?

Some manufacturers mix tiny Dacron beads in with the shot in their loads (especially buck shot).

Reason for this is that, upon being shot, the acceleration in the barrel "smooshes" the shot together and deforms them by causing flat sides. The non-concentric shot can be flyers, and make unpredictable patterns. (That is another reason that chokes tighter than "Improved Cylinder" are not recommended for buck shot. It can "smoosh" and deform the outside shot in the cup, causing multiple flyers, and some 12 Gauge 00 Buck only start with 9 pellets.)

The Dacron "buffered" shot helps to cushon the buck shot, keep them in place, minimize deformation, and give tighter, more concentric patterns.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 5th 2013, 10:45 pm

Is this the sort of things you'd teach in an official NRA shotgun safety course?

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by ccm2361 on June 5th 2013, 11:05 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:http://youtu.be/qKk45i9DzDA

I liked the video & love his range.
However I think that during his AR love fest, he missed 2 important advantages that the shotgun currently enjoys:

1) Home defense shotguns do not cost $1000+ (or even $500)

2) Shotgun ammo is cheap & plentiful. every store in town has lots of it.

Perhaps even a 3rd. He sort of touched on this: The PERCEPTION people have of the shotgun (thanks to hollywood) is that it can clear a street in 1 blast & nobody wins against a shotgun. I think that gives you a psychological advantage over the bad guy.

Now of course the AR looks all scary & EVIL! But those barrels look really big when you're staring down them





I'm sticking with my shotgun (especially since I don't have $1000 sitting around)

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Claymore on June 5th 2013, 11:12 pm

RRCmdrBennett wrote:Is this the sort of things you'd teach in an official NRA shotgun safety course?



The Program of Instruction for the NRA Shotgun Course is about 10 or 11 hours. So in that amount of time, in the portion pertaining to ammunition & chokes, that should be pretty-well covered.


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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 6th 2013, 2:58 am

I did think about price and availability of ammo too. Under normal conditions .223 was plentiful too. Now not all "assault style" are AR brand and do come in other chambers such as .22LR. I've seen Mossberg's with a 30 round mag for $300. My pump was $200 so that's a $100 difference.

If we're strictly limiting ourselves to the AR platform then price is a factor for most. For me a pump vs a double barrel shotgun is most likely the debate because the AR is currently out of my price range. If you drop a $1K in my pocket then the AR is my clear choice.

Either way you've the psychological deterrent of having a gun pointed at you. In the AR's favor the mental advantage is having a mag with 30 rounds or more. Double barrel shotgun is pure power and size. Weight of AR is less so if your target runs you can easily swivel to track him. You can't hold or fire a double barrel like a pistol.

Another advantage shotgun has over rifle is maintenance and cleaning. Shotguns are simple to break down, clean, and reassemble. Given that cleaning would occurr after the incident this doesn't really matter to me.

Going back to price a better comparison to the AR is a semi auto shotgun which is in the same price range. Comparing a double barrel single shot shotgun to a semi auto rifle is like apple to oranges.

If we remove the price tag I pick the AR for many reasons:

30 round mag or higher allowing you to quickly deal with 2+ attackers without reloading.
Easier reloading if that is even needed which is highly doubtful. Given standard 30 rounds that isn't likely.
Low Recoil is definitely going to be in an AR owner's favor.

Show me an AA12 then we are comparing oranges to oranges! Biden restricting us to two shells is clearly meant to keep The People at a tactical disadvantage in the event of an openly tyrannical government. In war Rifles are your primary weapon.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by Phillip Gross on June 6th 2013, 7:16 am

RRCmdrBennett wrote: Biden restricting us to two shells is clearly meant to keep The People at a tactical disadvantage in the event of an openly tyrannical government. In war Rifles are your primary weapon.
Exactly. The 2nd Amendment had nothing to do with hunting. It had everything to do with protection against a tyrannical government and individual criminals.

Too bad so many Americans are too stupid to realize that fact.....
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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

Post by RRCmdrBennett on June 6th 2013, 9:53 am

Lot of ignorance some of it willful ignorance. Many things about State and Fed power I didn't know until last couple years. I didn't understand Lincoln wasn't this great emancipator.

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Re: NRA and Conceal Carry Weapon Permit (CCW/OC)

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